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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show

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i'm martin willis your host i'm real

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excited about tonight's guests

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actually ralph was on my show uh right

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after he

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wrote an article for vanity fair uh

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ralph blumenthal should say is our guest

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and uh he was on the show shortly after

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he wrote

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an article in vanity fair about john

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mack

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and uh his interests grew and uh

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he's written a wonderful book uh we're

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going to be talking a lot about that

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tonight

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i have the i was lucky enough to get the

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book in the mail and uh

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i it's one of those i've been terribly

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busy

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and uh it's one of these books that once

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i started i

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i can't put it down it's excellent book

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i highly recommend it

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and the ironic part of of john mack in

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this situation is i've been

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now for about a month and a half i've

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been at a location in wellesley

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massachusetts

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working putting together an auction for

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a really fine gentleman a retired

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psychiatrist uh harvard faculty member

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and also a close friend of john max and

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uh so we get into conversations quite a

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bit

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about john mack and he also this harvard

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professor i'm working with dr robert

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piles i can say his name

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um he used to be in the navy and he

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admitted to me the other night that uh

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he remembers being on the aircraft

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carrier and

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uh pilots coming in and telling them uh

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telling him that they saw

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all these weird things happening in the

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sky he said so he goes i believe

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something's going on

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but one of the things he said is they

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really mistreated

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john mack and he it really upset him

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how he was treated because of what john

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did and we're going to be talking about

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that and

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what john did was uh he looked into the

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abduction

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phenomenon and uh so someone

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uh a pulitzer prize winner he had all

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these things going for him

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a stellar reputation but he was

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open-minded

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enough to look at something that was

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bewildered uh bewildering

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um and uh anyway i hope you get a chance

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to read the book we have ralph coming on

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in just a second

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i do want to thank everyone that helps

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out with the show

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i pre i appreciate that very much anyone

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can help out

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financially for a few dollars a month or

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more all that information's

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on our website uh speaking of that over

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at podcast ufo.com

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the blog this week is uh charles lear

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who does the blogs every week he's taken

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a little bit of a break

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uh he is finishing up on his book which

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is going to go off to the publishers

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fairly soon

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so i'm really excited for him so i

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brought up an old blog

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of the father gill case um which i think

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is one of the most fascinating cases uh

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and uh happened i think in 1952

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i don't want to get that wrong but um

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anyway check out the blog over there

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the father guild case it's very

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interesting we will have an audio blog

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of it up if you're

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lazy like i am some of the time you want

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to listen to it instead

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those audio blogs go out on our website

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and uh on the uh podcast feed

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and on youtube usually on fridays friday

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or saturday something like that so

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you can look forward to that every week

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and i think that's enough for me i'm

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ready to bring in our guests

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uh welcome to the show ralph thank you

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martin a real pleasure

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yes yes i remember how long ago did you

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write that article for vanity i think

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that was uh

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2013. uh i'd been looking into john mack

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for about

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then already eight or nine years

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so um all together it's been about 16

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years that i've been on this

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uh seems like forever really but the

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vanity fair piece was kind of a

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milestone for me because i was able to

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write about what i knew and i learned a

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lot more since then

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speaking of uh you the parallels i'm

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thinking of i

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i i'd like to know uh the parallels

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between you and john mack

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in a way that you know he was a harvard

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a respecter

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um harvard uh professor and a child

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psychology psychiatrist

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um had uh a pulitzer prize for his book

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on

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um uh lawrenceville

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uh lawrence of arabia right is that

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right

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yeah um so anyway how have you fared

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uh because you you're instrumental in

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the new york times article december

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um 16 19 uh 2019

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2017 that kind of shook everything up

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i mean you're one of the three authors

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of that how have you fared

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taking a trip down the road of ufos well

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first of all i'm flattered that you

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mentioned me in the same uh

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sentence with john mack in terms of

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similarities because he was much better

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looking than i am

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because he was good looking yeah very

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tall you know

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commandingly tall with bright blue eyes

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um

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and actually that's a later picture of

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him in his earlier years he was even

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more

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he was very magnetic and he was magnetic

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to men and women but particularly to

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women

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um as we'll find out but um

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so uh you know i don't compare myself to

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him in terms of certainly of his

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achievements he was a towering

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intellectual

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um he had won a pulitzer prize for his

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biography of

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t.e lawrence lawrence of arabia and he

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was a real pillar of the harvard

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establishment he had written books on

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nightmares he had written books on

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childhood development

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so and i've written for the new york

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times but

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anyway we're similar in that

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his quest to discover what was going on

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with these stories of alien abduction

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gripped him to the point where he risked

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his career to follow that

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and learning about him gripped me

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i didn't risk my career i'm happy to say

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um

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but i was uh really uh i don't want to

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say obsessed maybe that's too strong a

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word

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but certainly captured not by aliens but

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by the phenomenon that that attracted

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him

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um and when i came to write those

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co-write those stories in the new york

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times about

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uh the secret pentagon unit

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investigating ufos

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we think we did move the needle uh it

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was the first time really a mainstream

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publication

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seemed to take the phenomenon seriously

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the first time anyone knew about this

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secret ufo unit uh it was called atip

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um so i'm proud of the role we had in

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that

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yeah um did you know for

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a while that that was going to be um you

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know front page news and such a

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you know change things the way it did or

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was it just

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brought you by surprise it caught me by

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surprise i mean i've been working on the

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john mack book which is very different

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because that was his story about his

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involvement with uh you know the alien

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abduction

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phenomenon i always want to call

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phenomenon because i don't want to say

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it's real to the point of uh happening

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in our everyday reality

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john grappled with that it's a

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phenomenon i mean there's strange things

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about it

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john took it as something real and in a

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way it's real it's certainly real to the

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people who go through it

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but the ultimate reality of it is is

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obviously still a mystery

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um but um

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uh i lost my train of thought there but

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um

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i was asking you if you had any ridicule

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from

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oh you know uh along parallel to what

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what he had

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yeah uh uh we did from colleagues um

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uh we did get some ridicule because

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anybody who touches the subject still

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uh subject themselves to ridicule

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unfortunately

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um and john uh you know put up with a

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great deal of that

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uh as you you know noted at one point uh

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uh harvard uh you know put him under

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uh i call it an inquisition it was a

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word that they used

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um they said john this is not an

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inquisition so he was wondering well why

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did they say what it was not

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uh yeah but i think i just read that i

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think i just read that uh paragraph

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uh earlier today yeah

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yeah uh he he suffered a lot worse than

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i did

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and uh when we came in with the story

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you i guess here was the question you

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asked whether it caught me by surprise

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and leslie leslie kane my

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co-writer with helene cooper leslie went

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down to washington and found out that

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there had been a meeting

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of high-level people including lou

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elizondo who was the head of this

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advanced aerospace threat identification

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system the secret pentagon unit which no

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one knew about

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uh that was investigating ufos so she

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attended

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the meeting as a you know known writer

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on ufos

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and found out that lou was quitting

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because he wasn't getting enough support

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from the government

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from the pentagon so that was a good

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story right there and in the course of

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that we could tell

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you know what what this unit was how it

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had been funded by you know by harry

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reid senate majority leader for 22

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million dollars

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what it accomplished and we put out

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those navy videos that continue to be

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among the most watched uh

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you know videos that times has ever put

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out which show

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uh navy jets you know scrambling around

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these uh

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these objects these lights that uh are

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were picked up by radar they were caught

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on camera so they are real

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yeah yeah um you know it

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was going to be on the show just to

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announce that uh louis

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undo will be coming up uh in may at some

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point

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so yeah i there's so much more to talk

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to him about

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now that he's uh free from um to the

284
00:11:00,710 --> 00:10:57,680
stars

285
00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:00,720
academy about things so i

286
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:04,000
it should be interesting but um so

287
00:11:09,509 --> 00:11:07,200
when when that all happened

288
00:11:11,350 --> 00:11:09,519
um i i think i saw that there was

289
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:11,360
something like 120

290
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:14,640
news reports in a few days out on that

291
00:11:18,870 --> 00:11:17,040
when that came out and were you getting

292
00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:18,880
requests to be interviewed yourself as

293
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:20,959
well oh yeah oh yeah we were on

294
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:24,480
all the media um fox news by the way has

295
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:26,640
been particularly aggressive on

296
00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:30,320
the ufo front i don't understand quite

297
00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:31,200
why

298
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:34,480
uh but um uh they are very interested

299
00:11:37,269 --> 00:11:36,000
they recently had a you know some good

300
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:37,279
interviews with john

301
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:40,480
ratcliffe of uh they saw that director

302
00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:41,040
of

303
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:43,839
national intelligence and uh and marco

304
00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:44,720
rubio

305
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:46,640
the ranking chair of the senate

306
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:47,920
intelligence committee

307
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,760
so fox has been very aggressive but we

308
00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:51,360
were on all the stations and

309
00:11:56,069 --> 00:11:54,240
written up in the media uh because you

310
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,079
know it did change the paradigm uh

311
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:58,720
i mean i think it made it safe for

312
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:00,639
mainstream media to wade into this

313
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:04,160
uh subject that was long ridiculed

314
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,920
yeah and i want to personally thank you

315
00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:07,680
because it's made

316
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:09,680
my life easier i've talked about a

317
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:11,519
number of times on the show where

318
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:14,639
i uh because i'm a fine arts appraiser i

319
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:21,910
hang on just a second um i don't know

320
00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:22,240
what

321
00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:26,160
okay sorry about that um so it really

322
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,240
uh has changed my um

323
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:32,560
let's see i i've been really reluctant

324
00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:33,920
to talk about

325
00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:36,880
ufos you know when it comes to my

326
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:38,000
profession

327
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,959
and since that article came out i i

328
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:42,720
don't have that fear any longer

329
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:45,839
it's um i have like for instance i

330
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:47,200
talked about earlier

331
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:49,600
where i brought it up with uh you know

332
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:51,600
the person i'm working with

333
00:12:55,829 --> 00:12:54,240
the harvard professor that i'm working

334
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,839
with now

335
00:12:58,870 --> 00:12:57,279
i would have never been able to do that

336
00:13:01,509 --> 00:12:58,880
before so

337
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:01,519
thank you for making it easier well i

338
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:02,639
appreciate the work

339
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:05,440
it's opening up widely and maybe not as

340
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,480
fast as some people

341
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:08,399
want you know immediate disclosure of

342
00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:10,000
everything the government knows but

343
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:11,760
step by step we're moving in the right

344
00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:13,519
direction yeah

345
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:15,760
now i i do want to tell you i get a lot

346
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:17,279
of people that are just

347
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:20,240
starting to come into the ufo uh world

348
00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:20,800
and

349
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:23,839
have

350
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:26,720
absolutely no idea who any of us are for

351
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:27,760
one thing but

352
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:31,600
also uh john mack so um

353
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:32,560
even though we're going to be talking

354
00:13:35,670 --> 00:13:34,399
about your book and john mack the man

355
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,680
and and what he went through

356
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,920
and everything i would like if you could

357
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,120
in a nutshell

358
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,279
to explain to the person that really had

359
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:43,519
never heard much about john mack

360
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,800
if you can um sure um

361
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:49,040
because you know frankly um i didn't

362
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:50,800
know who john mack was when i stumbled

363
00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:52,000
across him uh

364
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:54,800
um i'll tell the story quickly i was a

365
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:57,199
new york times correspondent in texas

366
00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:59,760
uh and i picked up a used book uh one

367
00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:01,600
day and it was john mack's second book

368
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,440
passport to the cosmos

369
00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:05,600
um and i was amazed that he was an

370
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:07,279
esteemed harvard professor

371
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:09,920
you know psychiatry uh with a pulitzer

372
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:11,680
prize for lawrence of arabia

373
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:14,720
uh biography um

374
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:16,959
and very respected in the community and

375
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:18,320
and here he was uh

376
00:14:24,389 --> 00:14:22,160
you know researching uh human encounters

377
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:24,399
uh with aliens or what people remembered

378
00:14:28,389 --> 00:14:26,079
as these encounters so i thought well

379
00:14:30,629 --> 00:14:28,399
that's interesting right there

380
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:30,639
so uh i thought gee i ought to give him

381
00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:31,760
a call uh

382
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:33,680
maybe i'll make us you know do a story

383
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:34,880
do an interview

384
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,240
um and uh i was naive because i'd never

385
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:40,320
heard of him he'd been he was very

386
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,560
famous already uh he'd been on oprah

387
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:44,320
he'd written this was the second book i

388
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:46,480
saw he'd written a book before that

389
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:47,920
he'd been all over the media including

390
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:49,519
in the new york times but i just missed

391
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:50,240
it

392
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:53,519
so um a few days later i pick up the

393
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:54,639
paper and he's dead

394
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:56,720
uh he was run down in london looking the

395
00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:58,720
wrong way down on london street which

396
00:15:02,629 --> 00:14:59,519
americans

397
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:02,639
do too often uh and a guy who had too

398
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:04,000
much to drink hit him and killed him and

399
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:05,519
it wasn't a conspiracy it was not an

400
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:07,360
assassination as you know a lot of the

401
00:15:11,430 --> 00:15:08,240
stories went

402
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,440
anyway so um i then decided to look into

403
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,440
john mack and i got access to his papers

404
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:15,279
from his family and his archives and his

405
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,480
journals and

406
00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:18,959
everything he did he he made a copy of

407
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:20,720
and made a tape of so

408
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:23,279
anyway he was a harvard professor who

409
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,399
was very active

410
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:26,320
in social causes first of all in his

411
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:27,839
career he helped found

412
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:29,839
services for the poor in cambridge

413
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:31,120
mental health

414
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:34,320
clinics um then he did this pulitzer

415
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:36,000
prize-winning biography of lawrence of

416
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:37,040
arabia

417
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:38,480
and that made him an expert on the

418
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:40,240
middle east so he traveled all over the

419
00:15:43,189 --> 00:15:41,920
middle east trying to make peace between

420
00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:43,199
the israelis and the

421
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:45,920
palestinians he actually met with the

422
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:48,000
assa arafat at one point

423
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:50,560
um and then he became an anti-nuclear

424
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:51,120
weapons

425
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:57,360
nevada got arrested with his family

426
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:00,720
um and then uh there came a turning

427
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:01,839
point he went out to

428
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:03,680
esselin you know that great think tank

429
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:06,240
on the pacific that psychic think tank

430
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,880
uh mary avalgard a lot of you know

431
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,000
experiments with

432
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:13,199
you know mind-altering uh you know

433
00:16:19,829 --> 00:16:17,279
uh processes etc including drugs

434
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,839
um anyway he went out there and got

435
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:21,279
interested in holotropic

436
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:24,320
breathing a way of elevating

437
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:25,839
altering your consciousness through

438
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:28,160
breathing instead of drugs

439
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,839
um and that put him on another spiritual

440
00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:33,600
level he suddenly became aware of

441
00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:35,199
another world

442
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:39,519
um and um and then he met bud hopkins

443
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:40,160
who

444
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,240
many of the listeners may know the name

445
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:44,399
at least who was a

446
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:46,639
early abduction researcher before john

447
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:49,199
mack and he got john mack

448
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:51,680
involved in abduction research and

449
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,399
that's you know

450
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:54,560
that's the quick story about who john

451
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:55,519
mack was

452
00:17:02,470 --> 00:16:59,839
uh he came from a very um unlikely ufo

453
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:02,480
family family professors and they

454
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,600
weren't interested in

455
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:06,480
spiritual uh you know fantasy and things

456
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:08,640
like that they were very well grounded

457
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:12,480
so um his his spiritual awakening was

458
00:17:18,549 --> 00:17:16,160
was was rather momentous

459
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:18,559
very good thank you for that now i know

460
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:19,919
somewhere in your book

461
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:23,280
you mentioned how he first um

462
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:26,079
got in contact with bud hopkins wasn't

463
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:26,480
it

464
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:29,039
someone he was speaking to that knew him

465
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:30,240
or something there was

466
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:33,200
yeah they had yeah how did that go well

467
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:33,600
he

468
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:37,440
as i said uh john mack was out at esalen

469
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:39,760
uh doing this holotropic breathing and

470
00:17:44,549 --> 00:17:40,880
um

471
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:44,559
one of the people uh he was

472
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:46,160
one of the people he was in a group with

473
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:48,080
with fellow psychiatrists

474
00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:51,360
um well actually it happened even before

475
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:52,160
that uh

476
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:55,280
stan groff the uh czech born

477
00:17:58,549 --> 00:17:57,440
psychiatrist who developed holotropic

478
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,559
breathing

479
00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:00,559
um and who did a lot of research with

480
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:01,840
lsd a real

481
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:05,520
pioneer himself um gave john mack a

482
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:06,880
chapter of a book

483
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:10,000
that that he uh stan groff was editing

484
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:12,320
called spiritual emergency and the book

485
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:13,520
had a chapter

486
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:16,960
about uh the alien phenomenon

487
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:19,360
and what it meant and what it what and

488
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:20,960
why it was a mystery because it couldn't

489
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:22,400
it couldn't be solved

490
00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:25,600
and um and and john read that

491
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:27,679
he said why is stan groff giving me this

492
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:28,799
book i mean i this

493
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,640
makes no sense to me and he you know is

494
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:33,039
it true i mean he he was mystified

495
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:36,080
and then he met a fellow psychiatrist

496
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:38,320
who said she knew bud hopkins who was

497
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:40,640
doing all this research with abductees

498
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:42,480
or experiencers as they like to call

499
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:44,960
them and would john mack like to meet

500
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,480
bud hopkins

501
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:48,720
and his first reaction was no i think

502
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:51,280
he's these people got to be crazy and so

503
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:53,280
anyone who works was going to be crazy

504
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:55,280
so john mack was

505
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:58,640
you know a skeptic from the beginning um

506
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:01,280
but uh i can elaborate on the story

507
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:02,720
later if you want but one thing led to

508
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:04,240
another and he found himself meeting

509
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:05,840
with bud hopkins it was one of those

510
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:06,960
moments of

511
00:19:11,909 --> 00:19:09,760
you know synchronicity that that changed

512
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,919
one's life

513
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:13,679
yeah as i mentioned to you earlier i'm

514
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:15,520
out on the cape cape cod

515
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:19,200
and if i remember right um but and both

516
00:19:22,630 --> 00:19:22,000
uh john mack had places i think toro was

517
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:22,640
one of the

518
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:24,960
locations well not john but uh robert

519
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,440
lifton a fellow psychiatrist lyfton

520
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:29,600
was prominent in his own right i mean

521
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:31,360
lifton had written that wonderful book

522
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:32,080
on

523
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:34,880
uh nazi doctors and you know how they

524
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,000
came to become

525
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:38,720
you know killers working against health

526
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:40,400
instead of for health

527
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,440
uh you know participating in genocide

528
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:44,960
so lifton had done that and he'd written

529
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:46,960
a book on hiroshima nagasaki

530
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:50,240
and he was a friend of john's so and and

531
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:52,160
because lifton was a psychiatrist he

532
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,280
spent every summer

533
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,200
on the cape which is why you can't get

534
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:57,200
analyzed in the summer

535
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,240
because all you know all the

536
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:00,400
psychiatrists are on cape cod in

537
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:02,480
august so you know don't don't have a

538
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:04,720
mental health crisis in august

539
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:08,080
um i'll keep that in mind if you can if

540
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:08,960
you can

541
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:12,320
so um

542
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:14,400
so john mack is visiting lifton in new

543
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:15,600
york and

544
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,840
and lifton john mack finds out knows but

545
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:20,080
hopkins

546
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:25,840
who had spotted a ufo in the 1960s and

547
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:27,039
got interested in

548
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:30,559
in ufos and aliens and all that so

549
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:32,559
john mentioned that he had gotten an

550
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:34,559
invitation to to call bud but he didn't

551
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:35,840
want to call bud hopkins because he

552
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:37,919
thought the whole thing was nonsense

553
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:40,159
and then he said to lyft and by the way

554
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:42,080
you know bud hopkins why don't you come

555
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:44,400
with me and we'll both visit him

556
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:46,080
and uh this is a story i tell in the

557
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:47,919
book at this point uh

558
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:51,520
lifton's wife b.j speaks up in a very

559
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:53,840
spooky

560
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:56,480
interruption and she says to her husband

561
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:57,760
no

562
00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:00,000
she says you have a choice about getting

563
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:01,440
involved in this and john

564
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:04,880
doesn't right wow when i heard that

565
00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:06,480
story it blew me away because she was

566
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:08,159
like a cassandra i mean she saw the

567
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:08,799
whole thing

568
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:10,960
how john was going to get sucked into

569
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:11,919
this thing

570
00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:15,760
and and her husband didn't need to

571
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,799
um and sure enough john just suddenly it

572
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:20,400
popped into his mind he's gonna visit

573
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:22,559
bud hopkins even after he said uh no

574
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:24,400
that's crazy i you know i

575
00:21:29,029 --> 00:21:26,880
i don't believe in it it's um but he

576
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:29,039
visited bud hopkins and bud showed him

577
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:30,080
the letters that he

578
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,000
bud had gotten from these experiences

579
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:36,720
you know uh relating the most

580
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,760
extraordinary

581
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:40,000
encounters with you know these alien

582
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,159
beings and being taken up on a

583
00:21:46,149 --> 00:21:44,480
ship and subject to reproductive

584
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:46,159
experiments and

585
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:49,280
uh you know fathering and mothering

586
00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:49,840
hybrid

587
00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:52,400
children and you know stuff that john

588
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:54,159
and everyone else would knows it

589
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,880
can't possibly be true and yet the

590
00:22:02,070 --> 00:21:58,400
accounts were so

591
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:02,080
convincing um after john

592
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,679
you know collected his own circle of

593
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:05,919
people to investigate he

594
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:07,200
he was gripped he wanted to get to the

595
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:09,280
bottom of it so he started investigating

596
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:11,039
himself so that's the short version of

597
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:12,960
the story how john got into it through

598
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,280
bud hopkins

599
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:17,120
are you aware of was there a certain

600
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:19,039
case that kind of pushed

601
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,080
john like over the edge and and really

602
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:24,159
looking into this thing seriously well

603
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:26,320
you know there were so many martin and

604
00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:29,200
uh each one what was interesting to john

605
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:30,640
was that the stories were basically

606
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:31,360
coherent

607
00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:34,559
that they all seemed to follow a similar

608
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,880
narrative but they were all different in

609
00:22:40,549 --> 00:22:38,640
detail so it was not like the people

610
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:40,559
were following a script you know

611
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:43,120
and it was not like they even were eager

612
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,640
to come forward and tell their stories

613
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:46,640
to john he had to persuade them they

614
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:47,840
were

615
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:51,440
going crazy you know they couldn't

616
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:53,039
believe themselves what had happened to

617
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:53,600
them

618
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:55,520
or what they remembered happening to

619
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:57,919
them which they often remembered

620
00:23:01,510 --> 00:23:00,799
consciously quite apart from hypnosis

621
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:01,520
they had

622
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:03,280
fragments of these memories and they

623
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:04,960
knew it was not a nightmare

624
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:08,480
and they knew it was not um you know

625
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:10,559
something that that was made up they say

626
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:12,799
i know what what happened i know reality

627
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:13,679
anyway

628
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:17,039
um so i mean

629
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:20,080
among the cases he he talked about early

630
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:21,200
on

631
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:29,840
who were

632
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:33,600
having a sleepover when they were kids

633
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:37,280
and during the night they spotted a ufo

634
00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:40,480
um outside the window and

635
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:42,320
during the night one of the mothers of

636
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:44,640
the girls hosting the sleepover came

637
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:46,640
down to check on the girls and the girls

638
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:49,600
were gone and the mother absolutely

639
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:50,000
panicked

640
00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:51,760
you know she was responsible for the two

641
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:53,440
girls you know

642
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:55,279
uh that sleep over and she called the

643
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,960
police and they searched and they didn't

644
00:23:59,830 --> 00:23:58,240
find the girls

645
00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:59,840
and a few hours later they turned it

646
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:01,440
back in their beds

647
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:03,840
and uh the girl who john mack had

648
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:04,880
interviewed

649
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,679
uh later said well in that time she had

650
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,520
an abduction experience she remembered

651
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:11,360
being taken onto a ship and had all

652
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:11,760
these

653
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:15,279
you know experiences so that was a

654
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:17,279
intriguing case because it was one of

655
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:19,440
the few cases where john

656
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:25,039
found um an actual physical absence

657
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:28,159
um and those cases didn't come up that

658
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:29,919
often but whenever you have any kind of

659
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:32,240
witness corroboration like that

660
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,279
um it becomes more compelling so that

661
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:37,919
was one case

662
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:41,760
and you know he had as i said

663
00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:44,400
one case is more astounding than another

664
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:45,279
um

665
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:47,120
and he compiled them into a book his

666
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:48,880
first book uh called

667
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:50,640
abduction human encounters with aliens

668
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:52,480
at 13k studies

669
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:54,960
and uh boy anyone who's interested in

670
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:57,679
this field has to read that book because

671
00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,919
uh he goes about it like a psychiatrist

672
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,679
he delves into the cases he

673
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:03,520
cross-examines them

674
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:06,960
and there's doesn't come away with any

675
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:09,360
good explanation

676
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:12,320
that's right that's right he also um

677
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:13,440
gets to meet

678
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:15,600
there's a really interesting case and

679
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:16,880
i'm sure you know about this

680
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:20,000
it's in the book of course um about the

681
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:21,440
brooklyn bridge

682
00:25:25,269 --> 00:25:23,279
where the woman like floats out and

683
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:25,279
there was someone that witnessed this on

684
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:27,039
the outside too that

685
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,360
came about later that's quite a story do

686
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:30,880
you know that the details

687
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:33,360
yeah that's that looked like it was

688
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,240
going to be

689
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:36,480
the most important case maybe other than

690
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:38,559
the betty and bonnie hill

691
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:41,279
case of 1961 which came out later which

692
00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:42,320
was you know the

693
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:45,279
interrupted journey um which is kind of

694
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:46,799
the mother lode of

695
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:49,520
abduction stories uh well this case you

696
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,159
just

697
00:25:54,070 --> 00:25:52,159
mentioned martin looked like it was

698
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:54,080
going to be as good as that

699
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:57,360
bud hopkins came across it um when

700
00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:00,159
uh he got a letter from two guys who

701
00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:01,360
said they were

702
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:03,039
police they were actually security

703
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:04,400
guards apparently

704
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,679
who were escorting a vip

705
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,400
to a meeting late at night along the

706
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:12,320
down the east river down the fdr drive

707
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:13,440
in new york

708
00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:17,840
and they saw a woman being levitated out

709
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:20,240
of her 11 story window over the brooklyn

710
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:21,039
bridge

711
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:24,320
into a into a ufo by three

712
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:27,679
alien beings floating next to her and

713
00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:30,159
then they watch the ufo take off with

714
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:31,279
the woman and plunge

715
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:34,400
into the east river this was the story

716
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:35,760
this was the story that

717
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:38,720
that came to uh to bud hopkins and that

718
00:26:43,830 --> 00:26:40,480
he shared with john mack

719
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,840
so uh bud spent a lot of time trying to

720
00:26:48,470 --> 00:26:45,200
identify

721
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:48,480
these two witnesses and the the sad

722
00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:49,520
story is that

723
00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:51,840
despite the fact that he they eventually

724
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:53,279
sent him tapes

725
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:56,080
that he had transcripts of uh you know

726
00:27:07,830 --> 00:26:56,480
the

727
00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:07,840
so it became one of those super

728
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:09,039
mysteries

729
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:11,039
that uh other people supposedly

730
00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:12,559
witnessed this from the brooklyn bridge

731
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:13,919
drivers on the bridge

732
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:15,760
uh later came forward and said they had

733
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:17,919
seen some something similar

734
00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:20,480
but the case had as i said one big hole

735
00:27:22,870 --> 00:27:21,120
in it

736
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,880
which was that the two people who came

737
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:24,240
forward first and

738
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:25,520
and told the whole story who were

739
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:27,360
apparently abducted along with the woman

740
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:28,240
at some point it

741
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:32,080
got very convoluted uh

742
00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:35,600
were never identified well yeah

743
00:27:40,149 --> 00:27:38,240
um there was a rumor and i don't know if

744
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:40,159
it's true that there was someone

745
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:42,320
uh like an ambassador or something in a

746
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:43,279
car that

747
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:44,720
was actually one of the witnesses i

748
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:45,919
don't know if you ever heard that part

749
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:48,960
of it yeah no no that's in the book

750
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:51,760
oh it is italy yeah well okay i must

751
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:54,080
have skimmed over that i'm sorry well

752
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:55,760
you could be forgiven for that because

753
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:57,120
it is so strange

754
00:28:01,029 --> 00:28:00,000
martin if i tell you some of the stories

755
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:01,039
that came up

756
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:04,000
uh i mean each story is like better than

757
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:05,039
the last one

758
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:08,640
so supposedly the vip who these two

759
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,640
security guards are escorting

760
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:13,200
turned out to be uh javier perez de

761
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:14,880
cuellar the secretary general of the

762
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:17,039
united nations

763
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:19,279
and of course people made an effort

764
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,080
later

765
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,360
including me to uh confront perez de

766
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:25,200
cuellar and ask him if this is true

767
00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:26,720
obviously you want to know there's a

768
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:28,480
story going around that you were

769
00:28:32,149 --> 00:28:29,039
involved with

770
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:32,159
you were abducted as well and uh he

771
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:33,279
wouldn't really answer

772
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:36,320
um we i and and other people

773
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:39,440
uh found ways to you know uh

774
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:42,159
confront him ambush him at airports and

775
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:43,279
other places

776
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:46,320
and ask him point blank and he gave in

777
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:49,440
my case a very strange answer saying um

778
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:52,720
uh-huh well this is not something i know

779
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:53,279
about

780
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:55,279
you have to ask my wife well his wife

781
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,559
wasn't there so

782
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:59,039
you know now he died he died at 100 last

783
00:29:01,590 --> 00:28:59,679
year so

784
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:01,600
we'll never know his his version of the

785
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:03,120
story but uh

786
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,240
it was very strange yeah yeah

787
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,200
all right getting back to um the writing

788
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:11,600
of this book

789
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:13,840
no i know you you mentioned that you

790
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:15,360
were able to look at documents and

791
00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:17,679
things like that but did you work with

792
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:21,120
um say relatives of john or friends of

793
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:21,919
john

794
00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:24,640
and to get like inside stories of of the

795
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:25,440
man because i

796
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:28,320
i feel as though you know i'm getting to

797
00:29:30,149 --> 00:29:28,720
know

798
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:30,159
as you read through the book you get to

799
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:32,320
know his personality and you did a very

800
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:33,679
good job at that

801
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:36,559
thank you well i did try to i mean i had

802
00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:38,799
the advantage of having his archives but

803
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:39,200
as

804
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,159
into a full appreciation of the person

805
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,720
so um luckily i had the cooperation of

806
00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:48,480
the family his three sons

807
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:50,480
and his wife before she died unfortunate

808
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,480
cancer

809
00:29:55,830 --> 00:29:54,320
so they were very helpful and they did

810
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:55,840
not demand to see

811
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:57,760
the manuscript beforehand they didn't

812
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:59,600
you know uh

813
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:01,279
they didn't ask any conditions which i

814
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:02,720
thought was very uh

815
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:05,520
brave of them and really trusting to

816
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:07,760
give me that access without

817
00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:10,880
demanding anything in return so

818
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:14,000
i interviewed family members including

819
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:17,039
a cousin who had a who was about john's

820
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:18,880
age who had a wonderful

821
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:20,720
insight into his early years which i

822
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:22,480
couldn't get anywhere else and i looked

823
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:23,520
all over for him

824
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:25,200
and i found him living across the street

825
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:28,480
from me in new york

826
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,919
and that's one of the many

827
00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:31,520
synchronicities

828
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:34,559
uh that that really wowed me in in the

829
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:35,279
writing of this

830
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,640
in the you know research and writing of

831
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:38,399
this book i kept coming across these

832
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:39,520
things that

833
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:41,840
uh you know called young called

834
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:44,159
synchronicities coincidences that

835
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:46,080
make no sense but that you know that

836
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:47,600
happen all the time

837
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:51,120
so um and his friends and lovers you

838
00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:51,760
know

839
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:53,840
because john mack's mother died when he

840
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:55,679
was eight and a half months old

841
00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:59,039
um he was traumatized by that and

842
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,120
all his life he said himself he spent

843
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:03,600
looking for this elusive mother figure

844
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,640
and he found it in other women uh he

845
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:08,399
he had romances with after he was

846
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:10,559
married to his wife sally

847
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:12,480
he didn't skulk around i mean she knew

848
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:15,519
what was going on he wasn't secretive

849
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:18,559
he didn't he didn't really try to hide

850
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,679
it he just said i

851
00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:22,080
i'm attracted to two women and i think

852
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:23,679
part of it was the search for

853
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:26,799
for the missing mother but um

854
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,960
uh and i talked to quite a number of

855
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:30,399
those women there weren't that many i

856
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:32,000
mean there were a few he had romances

857
00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:33,600
with a few women he was not promiscuous

858
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,720
he wasn't like he was

859
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,240
you know hitting on every woman who came

860
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:38,559
his way he was he just

861
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:41,039
fell in love with a number of women uh

862
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:43,039
he was a good-looking guy there you see

863
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,799
um um so and luckily a number of the

864
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:47,840
women

865
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,960
did uh you know uh

866
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:52,720
share their confidence with me and tell

867
00:31:57,269 --> 00:31:54,559
me the stories

868
00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:57,279
uh and that really i think added a

869
00:32:02,789 --> 00:31:58,960
dimension because we could see

870
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:02,799
i could see john mack through their eyes

871
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:04,480
right right yeah that that's a really

872
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:06,720
good a really good advantage

873
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:09,679
um to to do it that way now have you had

874
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,240
you mentioned that no one asked

875
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:14,559
to look at the manuscript ahead of time

876
00:32:17,669 --> 00:32:16,480
how about feedback from the family have

877
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:17,679
you had that uh

878
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:19,760
luckily very good feedback i got a call

879
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:21,200
from danny his uh

880
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:24,640
youngest his uh older son firstborn

881
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:27,600
um recently who said he got he had

882
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:28,080
trouble

883
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,440
going through the book at first he was

884
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:31,279
very candid he said uh

885
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,880
it took him a long time to pick up the

886
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:34,960
book because it was so close to him

887
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:37,200
and uh i talk about how you know danny

888
00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:39,519
was really broken up at the funeral

889
00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:42,080
um anyway so he didn't read it right

890
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:43,519
away which kind of surprised me i

891
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:44,880
thought he would you know

892
00:32:48,149 --> 00:32:46,559
tear through it and you know pick it

893
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,159
apart or you know

894
00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:50,880
but he took a long time to to read it

895
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:52,720
but when he did

896
00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:54,880
he discussed it with his two brothers

897
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:55,840
and

898
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:57,600
danny told me they all liked it very

899
00:33:01,669 --> 00:32:58,880
much

900
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,679
and they thought it was a very fair

901
00:33:07,029 --> 00:33:03,840
account i mean it did present john

902
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:07,039
warts and all but uh in in you know

903
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:07,919
perspective

904
00:33:12,310 --> 00:33:10,799
and so i was really gratified and a lot

905
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:12,320
of his friends have come forward to say

906
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:14,000
they recognized the portrait

907
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:16,080
and it was good and and i guess the even

908
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:17,360
better compliment

909
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:18,880
uh was that they found things in the

910
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,640
book that i didn't know so i

911
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:22,720
added things to things that even his

912
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,320
friends didn't know

913
00:33:28,149 --> 00:33:26,399
well i gotta tell you i there was a lot

914
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:28,159
of things i didn't know about some ufo

915
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:29,919
cases that you wrote about

916
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:32,320
um you know for instance uh i had no

917
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:33,760
idea that kenneth arnold

918
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:36,399
case that you always hear about in 1947

919
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,799
had

920
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:38,559
all those other witnesses 20 other

921
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:40,880
witnesses i never knew that until i

922
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:42,799
was reading through uh what you wrote

923
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,000
about that so

924
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:46,559
um and so there's a lot more in there

925
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:47,840
for the person uh

926
00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:49,840
besides john mack up there so you go

927
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:51,200
into a lot of the cases

928
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:53,200
uh if you'll forgive me just one second

929
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:54,480
i want to pop this up

930
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:57,600
um this is from lou at the uh uh

931
00:34:01,190 --> 00:34:00,000
unidentified celebrity review he is

932
00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:01,200
putting together this thing

933
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:04,720
it's basically um et phone home

934
00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:08,720
on on april 24th coming up

935
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:10,960
the look at uh hashtag the big phone

936
00:34:15,109 --> 00:34:11,760
home

937
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:15,119
an organized uh event to call congress

938
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:16,560
in the senate during an eight-hour

939
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:17,440
stream

940
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,960
so uh we're gonna have a we're gonna

941
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,399
have a live stream i'm going to be

942
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,320
involved in that and that's coming up

943
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:24,800
um the big phone home it's called kind

944
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:25,679
of on you know

945
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:29,280
obviously the et thing phone right yeah

946
00:34:32,950 --> 00:34:31,679
on the 24th of april so uh thanks for

947
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:32,960
letting me do that little plug

948
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:36,240
thank you uh luis for uh for doing all

949
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:37,280
that he's been

950
00:34:41,349 --> 00:34:39,280
really instrumental it was his idea and

951
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:41,359
it's a great idea

952
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:48,230
this as far as mac goes

953
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:50,879
you know he he he he kind of gets into

954
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:53,359
this slowly i mean he had he's very well

955
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,320
established

956
00:34:57,430 --> 00:34:55,919
and he kind of gets into this slowly and

957
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:57,440
then finally he

958
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:59,520
he he comes out of the closet so to

959
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:01,680
speak what was that experience like

960
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:04,240
for him well it was slow but it was fast

961
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:05,520
too you know

962
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:08,480
because uh after he he meets bud hopkins

963
00:35:12,710 --> 00:35:09,520
in december

964
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:12,720
of 1990 um and

965
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:15,280
he walks away with the letters that bud

966
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,000
hopkins gave

967
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:18,720
him from abductees or experiences

968
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:19,599
telling their

969
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:22,880
stories but he doesn't read them right

970
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:24,640
away because he has a trip

971
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:27,839
coming up to czechoslovakia to prague

972
00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:29,520
because the prague spring has taken

973
00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:31,040
place and they're opening up they're

974
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,720
becoming democratic and he went there

975
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,720
with dan ellsberg who

976
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:36,320
the leaked depending on papers was a

977
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:38,400
friend of his so anyway

978
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:39,760
so he doesn't read them right away but

979
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:41,200
he reads them pretty quickly after that

980
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:42,800
so within a few weeks

981
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:46,320
and um uh he immediately assembles

982
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:48,880
this group of his own experiencers to to

983
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:49,440
you know

984
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:52,000
talk to them about really mind their

985
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:53,760
experiences because he's a psychiatrist

986
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,800
and he wants to

987
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,800
really have access to their their

988
00:36:02,630 --> 00:35:58,560
deepest thoughts

989
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:02,640
and um and then within about a year

990
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,480
kind of amazingly he's talking to

991
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:06,480
harvard to a harvard audience

992
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,440
about what he's found so some people

993
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:11,280
thought well that's too soon

994
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:14,240
uh you know considering the enormity of

995
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:14,560
the

996
00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:20,640
he has stumbled across uh he really

997
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:22,800
should have spent a little more time

998
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:24,960
uh investigating it but that was john he

999
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:27,359
was very impetuous and very enthusiastic

1000
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:29,119
and he couldn't wait to talk about what

1001
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:30,640
he'd found

1002
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:33,119
so he talks to a harvard audience and

1003
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:33,760
there's a

1004
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,280
predictable consternation like oh my god

1005
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:38,960
how could this be true

1006
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:40,640
including the wife of the president of

1007
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:42,400
harvard and other

1008
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,880
very distinguished faculty members so he

1009
00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:46,640
he did get some feedback and then

1010
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:48,400
not long after that he held another

1011
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:49,680
meeting at harvard

1012
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:52,720
a lecture where he laid out the story in

1013
00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:54,240
even more detail

1014
00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:57,359
so um he he didn't waste much time

1015
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:58,880
and he wasn't secretive about it i mean

1016
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:00,880
he you know he was happy to

1017
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:03,680
to lay it all out which is interesting

1018
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,800
other people might have been more

1019
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:06,000
intimidated

1020
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:08,000
and thought gee you know i got to make

1021
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:09,200
sure before i come

1022
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,720
forward with this but that wasn't his

1023
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:12,960
way

1024
00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:16,079
yeah well it it's amazing

1025
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:18,800
um you know you talk about we talked

1026
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,400
about earlier how the new york times

1027
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:22,240
kind of moved the needle

1028
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:26,000
uh in in a direction and

1029
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:29,040
uh as far as abductions i don't know if

1030
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:29,599
it actually

1031
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:31,920
moved a needle but do you think it did

1032
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:34,000
change how people were looking

1033
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:37,200
at the it definitely did

1034
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:38,800
i mean there were different scientists

1035
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:40,960
involved and and doctors were seeing

1036
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:41,920
patients

1037
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:43,440
so there was something going on under

1038
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,920
the surface uh in many places

1039
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:47,920
uh that didn't draw many headlines

1040
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:49,839
because obviously if people go to see a

1041
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,880
doctor

1042
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:52,400
about or a psychiatrist about an

1043
00:37:55,109 --> 00:37:53,760
experience it doesn't make headlines

1044
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:55,119
it's private

1045
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:58,000
so this work was going on but nobody put

1046
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:58,320
it

1047
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,320
front and center like john mack and

1048
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:01,920
because he was willing to go on these

1049
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:04,000
shows including oprah when his book came

1050
00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:07,200
out um he really became a celebrity

1051
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,560
so that uh you know put it in the

1052
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:12,240
spotlight and then suddenly there were

1053
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:13,839
you know a lot of articles about it

1054
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,560
and a lot focused on john so you know

1055
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:18,560
people ask well since he's gone

1056
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:20,640
is there anything comparable you know

1057
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:22,720
doing this research and the answer is no

1058
00:38:27,270 --> 00:38:25,119
you don't read about it the same way but

1059
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:27,280
um

1060
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:29,680
while he was around and doing this

1061
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:30,320
research

1062
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:33,680
he was everywhere

1063
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:36,800
right right um now we do have questions

1064
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:37,520
that pop up

1065
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:40,400
every now and then on chat also someone

1066
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,960
uh

1067
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:42,960
sent me questions earlier today i'm

1068
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:45,440
gonna try to get to that at some point

1069
00:38:49,589 --> 00:38:47,920
uh let's let's let's answer this one uh

1070
00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:49,599
quickly before we go into more

1071
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:53,119
uh this has to do with um

1072
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:56,800
between let's see the initials m

1073
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:58,079
from this person i don't know who they

1074
00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:00,000
are do you have any

1075
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:02,320
information on the connection between a

1076
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:03,040
tip

1077
00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:06,079
and the other sherman ranch yeah that's

1078
00:39:11,829 --> 00:39:07,040
the skin walker

1079
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:14,950
as far as i know the connection is that

1080
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:21,990
entrepreneur and space scientist one of

1081
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:24,400
his modules by the way

1082
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:26,240
space habitats is attached to the

1083
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:29,359
international space station

1084
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:32,400
so robert bigelow has also been a funder

1085
00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:35,760
of uh research in anomalous

1086
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:39,520
events uh he he funded a poll

1087
00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:41,599
that john mack and bud hopkins took

1088
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:43,359
early on about

1089
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:46,000
abduction and how how common it was

1090
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:47,760
which was quite controversial

1091
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:50,079
but so robert bigelow has been a funder

1092
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:51,280
of anomalous

1093
00:39:57,829 --> 00:39:54,560
research for a long time um

1094
00:40:01,829 --> 00:39:57,839
so when atip was

1095
00:40:05,589 --> 00:40:01,839
um was was organizer founded

1096
00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:05,599
in 2007 with a 22 million dollar

1097
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:08,400
appropriation that uh harry reid got

1098
00:40:13,829 --> 00:40:09,440
secretly

1099
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:13,839
uh to set it up um the the contract uh

1100
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:17,040
involved um picked to

1101
00:40:22,390 --> 00:40:20,640
uh to do some of the research and

1102
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,400
commissioned some of the scientific

1103
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:24,480
papers on ufos

1104
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:27,839
etc was robert bigelow and people have

1105
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:29,680
pointed to the connection between robert

1106
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:31,359
bigelow and harry reid they know each

1107
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:32,560
other a long time they're both from

1108
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:33,839
nevada

1109
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:39,200
and so it wasn't particularly surprising

1110
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:43,200
so um so the main contractor for

1111
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:46,000
uh for atip was robert bigelow and he

1112
00:40:50,069 --> 00:40:46,880
commissioned

1113
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:50,079
studies some of which we've seen on

1114
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:55,359
um uh on ufo aerodynamics and

1115
00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:57,359
possible materials and you know whatever

1116
00:41:02,150 --> 00:40:59,119
they could pull together on

1117
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:02,160
uh understanding ufos uh

1118
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:04,240
that's what robert bigelow did but it's

1119
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:06,079
not really public because he's a it was

1120
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:07,760
a private contractor

1121
00:41:11,829 --> 00:41:11,200
and um it's not responsive to foyer you

1122
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,839
know

1123
00:41:15,670 --> 00:41:13,680
requests so it's really kind of

1124
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:15,680
mysterious um

1125
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,599
at the same time you know robert bigelow

1126
00:41:21,829 --> 00:41:19,200
bought the skinwalker ranch

1127
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:21,839
which was this utah ranch where all

1128
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:24,319
kinds of paranormal things were going on

1129
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:26,880
um but as far as i know atip was not

1130
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:27,359
really

1131
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:28,720
involved with that a-tip was involved

1132
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:30,880
with ufos in the skies and not

1133
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:33,359
strange things going on on the ground at

1134
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:34,640
a utah ranch

1135
00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:37,200
so i i i hope that answers your question

1136
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,640
to some degree

1137
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:41,280
yeah uh thank you for that yeah uh

1138
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:42,000
speaking of

1139
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:45,280
of that i will have uh the new owner of

1140
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:48,160
the skinwalker ranch ran brandon he'll

1141
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:48,800
be on

1142
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:52,720
um sometime in may on this show

1143
00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:54,960
another question that was uh sent to me

1144
00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:55,839
earlier

1145
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:57,839
can you describe your dealings with uh

1146
00:42:01,750 --> 00:42:00,160
the point lady at the pentagon for ufos

1147
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:01,760
when you were doing that article i think

1148
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:03,200
is it susan

1149
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:06,160
goff or something like that yeah um very

1150
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:07,520
very few first of all

1151
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:11,520
um the the the component of our story

1152
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:12,240
that involved

1153
00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:13,760
interactions with the pentagon was

1154
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:15,520
handled by my colleague helene cooper

1155
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:16,240
who's a

1156
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:18,400
a defense correspondent for the new york

1157
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:19,680
times in washington

1158
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:22,079
so she knew the spokespeople at the

1159
00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:23,359
defense department

1160
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:27,920
and basically um when our story was done

1161
00:42:32,069 --> 00:42:30,000
with our sources uh you know on the

1162
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:32,079
record we went to the defense department

1163
00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:33,119
for comment

1164
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:35,520
and they didn't say much which again we

1165
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:37,200
had kind of predicted and then

1166
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:39,920
uh later on they suggested that lou

1167
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:41,359
elizondo was not

1168
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:42,960
the head of the program or he wasn't

1169
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:45,119
what he said he was which

1170
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,160
we we thought was very damaging to them

1171
00:42:52,390 --> 00:42:50,800
because lou alessando we're confident is

1172
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:52,400
exactly what we said he was he was the

1173
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:53,839
head of the program

1174
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:56,880
um and he has an intelligence background

1175
00:43:00,309 --> 00:42:57,359
and he

1176
00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:00,319
everything he told us stood up so uh

1177
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:01,520
there was no question about his

1178
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:03,040
credibility but there was some effort in

1179
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:04,960
the defense department early on to kind

1180
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:05,520
of

1181
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:08,880
raise doubts about lou elisondo

1182
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:11,760
completely unwarranted in our view and

1183
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,200
um

1184
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:15,760
in fact the the defense department has

1185
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:16,720
now

1186
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:24,640
pilots and

1187
00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:28,000
sailors to report uh you know ufo

1188
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:28,880
sightings so

1189
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:31,040
uh i don't think they're doing the same

1190
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:31,920
things they did

1191
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:36,160
early on with us was there when you were

1192
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:38,960
writing that article was there ever any

1193
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:41,520
point where

1194
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:44,640
there was like question whether this

1195
00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:46,240
could be a disinformation

1196
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:50,319
situation um well it always comes up you

1197
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:50,800
know

1198
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:54,160
but um

1199
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:57,280
i can tell you this that there was no

1200
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:57,839
question

1201
00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:59,680
whether we would not leaked this

1202
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:00,960
information we would not

1203
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,480
fed this information for disinformation

1204
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:06,640
uh we know how we got the information

1205
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:09,440
through through good contacts leslie had

1206
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:12,400
uh we had to uh eke it out you know

1207
00:44:17,589 --> 00:44:14,560
nobody spoon fed it to us

1208
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:17,599
um so in that sense it was not

1209
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:21,200
um some plot to you know leak the story

1210
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:22,079
to us we we

1211
00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:23,920
fought for that story to get it to get

1212
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:25,599
it out from our sources

1213
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:29,119
um and uh it

1214
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:30,880
i mean if anyone is suggesting that

1215
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:32,560
these objects are

1216
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:36,000
secret american technology all our

1217
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,599
experts say absolutely not um

1218
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:42,240
it wouldn't make any sense for uh you

1219
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:44,240
know the american military to be flying

1220
00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:46,640
dangerously close to navy jets

1221
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:49,359
exposing its technology to know to

1222
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:50,000
accidents

1223
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:53,119
for for so many reasons uh we are

1224
00:44:57,829 --> 00:44:56,480
told absolutely authoritatively that

1225
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:57,839
this is not

1226
00:45:01,990 --> 00:45:00,079
american technology now if could it be

1227
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:02,000
foreign technology that's a slightly

1228
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:03,040
different story but

1229
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:06,720
also probably not right and do you think

1230
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:07,359
what do you

1231
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:10,240
do you think that uh that article also

1232
00:45:15,349 --> 00:45:12,560
kind of helped a little bit with the

1233
00:45:16,230 --> 00:45:15,359
um with the government's investigation

1234
00:45:18,550 --> 00:45:16,240
currently that's

1235
00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:18,560
you know their 180 day i heard it's

1236
00:45:21,349 --> 00:45:19,839
going to probably take a lot longer than

1237
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:21,359
that but you mentioned mark

1238
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:24,560
ruby marco rubio and um you know talking

1239
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:25,359
about that

1240
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:27,599
um do you think that was an influence as

1241
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:28,880
well part of it

1242
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:31,119
yeah i like to think that that we had

1243
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:32,079
some role in

1244
00:45:35,829 --> 00:45:34,720
in uh showing the government that it's

1245
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:35,839
okay

1246
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:38,880
uh if some of this information comes out

1247
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,720
uh you know for a long time the

1248
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:42,160
government took the position that

1249
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:43,920
none of this information should come out

1250
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:46,400
ever since blue book was shut down

1251
00:45:50,150 --> 00:45:49,599
in 1970 the government has insisted that

1252
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:50,160
you know

1253
00:45:53,349 --> 00:45:52,000
nothing to see there folks just keep

1254
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:53,359
yeah move along

1255
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:58,160
nothing to see um and uh you know

1256
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:00,400
navy pilots and sailors were discouraged

1257
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:02,160
from reporting ufos because they'd be

1258
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:03,599
sent to the shrink

1259
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:05,359
uh they would hurt you know hurt their

1260
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:07,920
career commanders made an issue of it

1261
00:46:11,910 --> 00:46:10,319
but now there's more of a willingness so

1262
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:11,920
i think we showed the government in a

1263
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:12,560
way

1264
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:15,040
that it's okay to acknowledge what

1265
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:16,640
everybody already knows that these

1266
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:17,760
things are up there they're flying

1267
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:19,200
around nobody knows what they are

1268
00:46:23,349 --> 00:46:21,200
but they but they exist that's already a

1269
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:23,359
big you know step forward that these

1270
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,119
things are real

1271
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:27,680
um yeah so i think it gave the

1272
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:29,920
government a little more confidence

1273
00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:33,520
yeah i i hope eventually we are able to

1274
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:36,640
see you know more videos i mean

1275
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:39,440
you talked about that video being one of

1276
00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:40,800
the most viewed ever

1277
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:43,280
you know through the new york times um

1278
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:45,599
and i believe that will still happen

1279
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:48,079
consi considering um you know i've heard

1280
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:50,079
lou elizundo say that

1281
00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:52,319
there are more compelling videos than

1282
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:53,520
those

1283
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:55,119
out there and you know they showed just

1284
00:46:58,950 --> 00:46:56,960
a short period of time

1285
00:47:00,150 --> 00:46:58,960
um and you know i understand a lot of

1286
00:47:01,990 --> 00:47:00,160
that could have to do with

1287
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:02,000
national security or or something like

1288
00:47:04,630 --> 00:47:04,160
that but uh it sure would be wonderful

1289
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:04,640
to see

1290
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:06,319
more of those videos how do you feel do

1291
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:07,440
you think that we'll be seeing them

1292
00:47:10,309 --> 00:47:08,240
someday

1293
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:10,319
i i think we will see more of them we'd

1294
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:11,520
love to see more we

1295
00:47:15,589 --> 00:47:14,560
are you know always looking to get more

1296
00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:15,599
on the public record

1297
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:17,440
uh we've heard the same things martin

1298
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:20,079
that the that there are many more videos

1299
00:47:24,790 --> 00:47:21,760
that they're better quality they're

1300
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,800
longer than what we were able to put out

1301
00:47:28,230 --> 00:47:26,400
so and you know they're paid for by the

1302
00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:28,240
american people i mean uh

1303
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:31,040
you know who do they belong to um now i

1304
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:32,000
understand the

1305
00:47:36,069 --> 00:47:34,400
you know interest is keeping our secrets

1306
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:36,079
from adversaries

1307
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:38,000
but the adversaries are grappling with

1308
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:40,319
the same thing for everything we hear

1309
00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:44,079
um so uh again it's a question of of how

1310
00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:46,000
much the american people are entitled to

1311
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:46,720
know

1312
00:47:52,710 --> 00:47:49,920
paying for this

1313
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:52,720
surveillance and this technology to that

1314
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:54,400
that is tracking these things so they

1315
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:57,359
should know what what it shows

1316
00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:59,839
you know i wonder sometimes like if if a

1317
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:02,160
video comes out and it's too good

1318
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,400
are people gonna just say it no it is

1319
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:06,400
too good and it can't be real it has to

1320
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:06,960
be

1321
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:08,960
cgi but of course if it has the

1322
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:10,160
government behind it

1323
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:11,760
that was that is what will make the

1324
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:14,000
difference you know after our video came

1325
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:15,200
out there were a lot of

1326
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:17,280
people second-guessing us on the

1327
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:18,319
internet

1328
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:20,800
um raising out and you know there are

1329
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:22,480
people who have nothing better to do or

1330
00:48:24,549 --> 00:48:22,880
maybe

1331
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:24,559
i mean i don't want to disparage them

1332
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:26,319
they're very smart people out there

1333
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:28,240
and they have a lot of technical ability

1334
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:30,400
but they were analyzing this stuff and

1335
00:48:34,069 --> 00:48:32,319
showing how it couldn't be true and it

1336
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:34,079
had to be faked and look at this

1337
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:37,680
angle and that angle and none of that

1338
00:48:41,190 --> 00:48:39,280
held up as far as i know because the

1339
00:48:41,910 --> 00:48:41,200
navy finally came out and authenticated

1340
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:41,920
the

1341
00:48:50,309 --> 00:48:48,720
uh it seems clear to me so um

1342
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:50,319
there's always going to be people who

1343
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:51,920
you know are going to

1344
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:54,160
try to take an adversarial position and

1345
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:55,520
uh there are people who

1346
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:58,000
bash the new york times bash me bash us

1347
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,800
you know

1348
00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:00,640
um it's uncomfortable but i guess it

1349
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:02,559
comes with the territory

1350
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:05,040
yeah yeah uh mick west i'm sure you know

1351
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:08,079
who that is or probably heard the name

1352
00:49:14,549 --> 00:49:11,520
are you familiar with who he is yeah

1353
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,559
yeah yeah he he uh

1354
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:16,559
he has done some really good work in the

1355
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:17,920
past but

1356
00:49:21,589 --> 00:49:20,000
in particular on these videos the three

1357
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:21,599
videos that came out

1358
00:49:25,349 --> 00:49:23,520
he did absolutely terrible work i mean

1359
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:25,359
nothing was even close

1360
00:49:29,109 --> 00:49:28,319
to uh fitting what he was saying and

1361
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:29,119
that that

1362
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:31,520
was right into the debunker mode and

1363
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:32,720
unfortunately

1364
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:35,040
it seems like uh a lot of people like

1365
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,720
that have a lot of followers and a lot

1366
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,480
of people are just gonna dismiss

1367
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:40,079
that and turn their heads and walk away

1368
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,160
you know well as you know the

1369
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:44,480
internet is the wild west and anybody

1370
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:45,280
you know yeah

1371
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:47,200
can get on and say anything they want

1372
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:49,040
and portray themselves any you know with

1373
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,240
it where they want there's actually

1374
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:52,319
there's a lot of agendas out there

1375
00:49:56,790 --> 00:49:54,480
um when we were doing our stories and

1376
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:56,800
not just the december 2017 story but

1377
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:58,400
subsequent stories

1378
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:00,880
we had a lot of second guessing from you

1379
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:02,319
know people on the internet who were

1380
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:03,680
saying why didn't the new york times

1381
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:04,720
report this and

1382
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:06,480
they were tracking us you know who we

1383
00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:07,760
were talking to and

1384
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,920
why don't they say this and the truth is

1385
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:11,520
we said what we were comfortable saying

1386
00:50:14,309 --> 00:50:12,480
there was a lot of stuff

1387
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:14,319
information that came to us that we

1388
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:15,760
didn't put into the paper

1389
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:17,520
because we couldn't authenticate it or

1390
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:19,280
didn't rise to the level of proof that

1391
00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:19,920
we

1392
00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:22,000
and our editors demanded so but there

1393
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:23,520
were always people out there who say ah

1394
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:25,760
the new york times is being muzzled or

1395
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:27,200
you know what else did they have that

1396
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:28,559
they didn't print

1397
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:29,920
there's always stuff you have that you

1398
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:31,599
don't print

1399
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:34,000
yeah yeah absolutely yeah i talked to

1400
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:34,720
leslie

1401
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:37,839
um not not not too long after that

1402
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:40,000
article came out and she explained

1403
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:43,280
you know what uh what scrutiny that uh

1404
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:45,119
you all faced there it was not an

1405
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:47,200
easy not an easy task to get that

1406
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:48,400
article done

1407
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:50,319
it was not and and you know that's what

1408
00:50:55,349 --> 00:50:51,599
editors do and

1409
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,359
that you know the more innovative your

1410
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:57,440
stories become or the more probing

1411
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:59,040
first of all you're dealing in an area

1412
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:00,960
of classified information

1413
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:04,480
uh a lot of the you know stuff

1414
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:05,839
that the government has compiled is

1415
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:08,079
classified so that

1416
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:10,480
already uh puts a crimp in what we're

1417
00:51:14,790 --> 00:51:11,200
able to

1418
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:14,800
find out much less report

1419
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:16,720
so people won't talk to us about it

1420
00:51:22,150 --> 00:51:18,000
because they don't want to go to jail

1421
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:22,160
we don't want to go to jail so um

1422
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:23,920
so we have to work around that and work

1423
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:26,480
with material that is not classified

1424
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:28,640
um an a-tip by the way was not a

1425
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:29,920
classified program

1426
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:32,400
uh interestingly enough um that is

1427
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,119
strange

1428
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:35,520
yeah yeah uh you know there's so much

1429
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:37,280
over classification of the government

1430
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:37,599
and

1431
00:51:40,710 --> 00:51:39,359
uh people we talk to say this all the

1432
00:51:43,670 --> 00:51:40,720
time

1433
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:43,680
it's um you know the the instinct i

1434
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:45,440
guess of government bureaucrats

1435
00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:47,040
if they when in doubt stamp it

1436
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:48,480
classified you know

1437
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:52,079
um and so much of what uh people already

1438
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:52,559
know

1439
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:54,880
obviously and what's out there is is

1440
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:57,040
stamp classified it's over classified

1441
00:52:01,990 --> 00:52:00,319
so uh that's a problem uh but there's

1442
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:02,000
legitimate stuff that's classified we

1443
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:03,280
understand that you know we have

1444
00:52:05,829 --> 00:52:04,240
adversaries

1445
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:05,839
that are looking to know what we're

1446
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:08,480
capable of and they want our technology

1447
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:12,240
um so um it's just that

1448
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:13,839
that some things don't need to be as

1449
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:16,000
classified as they are we think

1450
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:17,920
and the american public deserves to know

1451
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,280
it can be trusted

1452
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:21,599
you know can be trusted with the truth

1453
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:23,520
we can handle the truth

1454
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:26,480
that's right not like in that movie yeah

1455
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:27,599
in the movie

1456
00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:31,040
yeah we're going into break here in just

1457
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:32,559
a couple minutes and during the break

1458
00:52:38,069 --> 00:52:34,160
i'm going to play a clip

1459
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:38,079
of uh dr mack um at the ariel school

1460
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:40,160
right after that happened a number of

1461
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:41,760
weeks he showed up there

1462
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:44,960
but uh would you say of all the

1463
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:47,680
cases that he looked into is that the

1464
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:49,280
most profound

1465
00:52:53,430 --> 00:52:52,000
just about just about because it

1466
00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:53,440
involved children

1467
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:56,480
uh speaking to him on the record um

1468
00:53:00,710 --> 00:53:00,160
in in childish ways that seemed to rule

1469
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:00,720
out

1470
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:03,520
uh you know premeditation or hidden

1471
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:05,599
agendas these were kids

1472
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,559
uh who encountered uh a ufo landing

1473
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:10,160
apparently at their school

1474
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:13,920
and two uh beings got out and

1475
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:16,000
interacted with the children they gave

1476
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:17,680
them telepathic messages

1477
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:19,839
is what the students what the pupils

1478
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:20,960
said later

1479
00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:22,800
and the children drew pictures of what

1480
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:24,400
they had seen the accounts were

1481
00:53:28,390 --> 00:53:26,160
consistent

1482
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:28,400
it was an absolutely amazing episode and

1483
00:53:30,950 --> 00:53:29,920
we can talk about that after the break

1484
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:30,960
in more detail

1485
00:53:34,390 --> 00:53:33,200
but john did go there and he interviewed

1486
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:34,400
the kids and he

1487
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,400
made tapes of the kids audio and video

1488
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:40,480
many of which i've seen and some of the

1489
00:53:44,549 --> 00:53:42,319
kids drawings are in my book

1490
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:44,559
so uh it could be the most important

1491
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:46,480
case he investigated

1492
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:48,319
yeah and we're get we're going to jump

1493
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:49,760
in in just a minute for

1494
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:52,559
for that break but um i do want to say

1495
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:54,000
again for the new listener as i

1496
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:54,559
mentioned

1497
00:53:59,349 --> 00:53:56,400
we have a lot of new listeners if you

1498
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,359
just look into the arielle school

1499
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:01,200
incident you will see a lot about that

1500
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:03,119
and and also you have a

1501
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:05,280
friend of mine in the book a few times

1502
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:06,880
uh randy nickerson

1503
00:54:11,829 --> 00:54:10,319
and he's uh he's you know uh i i believe

1504
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:11,839
he was on oprah too

1505
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:14,720
um was but he's he's very reluctant to

1506
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:16,079
talk about

1507
00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:19,040
his past when it comes um to his

1508
00:54:23,829 --> 00:54:20,319
experiences

1509
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:23,839
yeah randy's very uh private and uh you

1510
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:25,760
know i guess given his experiences he

1511
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:27,440
has a right to be he is in the book he's

1512
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:28,400
given another name

1513
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:30,640
scott which i talk about so if you want

1514
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:32,240
to read about his experience you just

1515
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:33,760
look at john mack's book

1516
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:36,640
on the chapter scott and you'll find you

1517
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:38,079
know an amazing uh

1518
00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:41,359
you know series of events uh and randy

1519
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:44,079
has done a film on the aerial phenomenon

1520
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:46,000
uh yeah hopefully we'll get to see that

1521
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:48,079
soon it's getting real close

1522
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:50,880
and um i have heard uh details and i'll

1523
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:52,400
share them as soon as

1524
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:54,799
as i'm able to on this show and we'll

1525
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,480
have him on just before

1526
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:58,559
so i'll uh we're about ready to go into

1527
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:00,400
break here and i just wanted to say

1528
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:03,280
for the person over on youtube uh watch

1529
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:04,160
the way

1530
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:06,319
that john mack talks to these children i

1531
00:55:10,470 --> 00:55:07,760
mean it just

1532
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:10,480
it just it's incredible he gets down to

1533
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:11,920
their level he's a tall man

1534
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,799
gets down to their level talks softly he

1535
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:16,400
doesn't lead them and it's wonderful

1536
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:17,680
this just shows

1537
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:20,799
a testament to the type of person he is

1538
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:23,599
for those of you over kgr a radio we'll

1539
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:24,400
be right back

1540
00:55:28,630 --> 00:55:27,520
right after these messages say i'd call

1541
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:28,640
them aliens

1542
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:32,000
i'd call them alien beings in september

1543
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:33,040
1994

1544
00:55:37,829 --> 00:55:35,520
over 60 children from this school in the

1545
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:37,839
suburbs of harare zimbabwe

1546
00:55:41,510 --> 00:55:39,760
witnessed several objects landing and

1547
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:41,520
two beings coming out

1548
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:43,200
just over two months later john and

1549
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:45,040
dominique came to the scene to work with

1550
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,640
the children their parents

1551
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:48,400
and the teachers still suffering from

1552
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:50,799
shock john who essentially specialized

1553
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:52,960
in child psychiatry devoted a great deal

1554
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:56,000
of time to interviewing the children

1555
00:56:03,190 --> 00:55:59,280
something scared you is that right

1556
00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:03,200
what scared you the noise what noise

1557
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:05,839
the noise that we heard in the ear you

1558
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:07,440
heard a noise in the air

1559
00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:10,079
what was it like like a roar or a buzz

1560
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:12,000
or a hum or what kind of a noise

1561
00:56:18,309 --> 00:56:15,200
it was like someone was blowing a flute

1562
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:18,319
it was scary myself it was scary because

1563
00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:19,599
you saw something yourself

1564
00:56:28,470 --> 00:56:26,079
yes i saw a little object

1565
00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:28,480
hovering it was quite big actually and

1566
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:29,760
then there was little ones

1567
00:56:34,150 --> 00:56:32,799
all rounded we saw something silver and

1568
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:34,160
then we quickly

1569
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:37,680
ran to the loud to the logs and we saw

1570
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:41,200
a silver silver thing and we saw a man

1571
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,280
standing next to it what was it what did

1572
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:45,359
it feel like when he was looking at you

1573
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:48,480
i felt scared it felt scared

1574
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:52,160
what was scary about it well

1575
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:54,240
i felt scared because i've never seen

1576
00:56:57,829 --> 00:56:55,680
such a

1577
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:57,839
person like that before did you see the

1578
00:57:04,950 --> 00:56:59,520
eyes

1579
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:06,549
where was the pointy part it was the

1580
00:57:08,870 --> 00:57:08,400
pointy part in here or was the pointy

1581
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:08,880
part

1582
00:57:14,549 --> 00:57:13,040
nothing up there and

1583
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:14,559
what was the feeling when you looked at

1584
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:16,559
the eyes um

1585
00:57:27,270 --> 00:57:24,230
and what scary why what made it scary

1586
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:27,280
the eyes looked evil evil

1587
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:30,160
and what was evil about them say what

1588
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:40,470
it looked evil because it was just

1589
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:42,640
staring at me

1590
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:45,839
with what staring at you as if what as

1591
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:51,190
as if i wanted to come and take us as if

1592
00:57:54,710 --> 00:57:52,559
it wanted to come and take you

1593
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:54,720
that was the feeling you got that he

1594
00:57:58,630 --> 00:57:55,680
wanted you to

1595
00:57:59,750 --> 00:57:58,640
go with it did you feel like you wanted

1596
00:58:02,710 --> 00:57:59,760
to go with it

1597
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:02,720
no did you feel what was the effect on

1598
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:03,280
you

1599
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:06,400
go with it

1600
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:11,589
they came running up here in such a

1601
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,880
panic and

1602
00:58:16,069 --> 00:58:14,559
i mean even if we had staged it they

1603
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:16,079
could not have run all together like

1604
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:16,480
that

1605
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:18,000
even if we practiced it i don't know how

1606
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:20,720
many times that they came up here like a

1607
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:22,000
living snake

1608
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:23,680
and they just came we were in a staff

1609
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:25,359
meeting and we just heard them screaming

1610
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:26,400
screaming

1611
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:28,720
and then they were yeah you know and a

1612
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:30,880
child can't make that up

1613
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:33,119
i was very skeptical in the beginning as

1614
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:33,920
well

1615
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:36,400
i believe that they'd seen something but

1616
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:38,000
i wasn't prepared to accept that it was

1617
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:38,640
anything

1618
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,480
think the consistency of

1619
00:58:46,390 --> 00:58:44,319
of what's been going on indicates that

1620
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:46,400
it was more than i was prepared to admit

1621
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:48,799
in the beginning

1622
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:50,559
to both of them were running one was

1623
00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:52,720
running um in the trees

1624
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:54,160
and the other one was running running

1625
00:58:59,990 --> 00:58:56,000
across the ship because there were also

1626
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:02,470
the eyes were were like more pointed as

1627
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:04,000
they came in toward the center of the

1628
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:06,640
head is that

1629
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:09,280
and this was all black now you've made

1630
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:32,470
[Music]

1631
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:35,510
okay martin coming back in three two

1632
00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:42,230
welcome back everyone i'm martin wills

1633
00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:44,559
your host and uh

1634
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:47,680
i just love that clip uh and i

1635
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:48,960
i know hopefully there's some people

1636
00:59:53,430 --> 00:59:50,799
that speak german they could read the

1637
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:53,440
the subtitles on that spreckenzi deutsch

1638
00:59:57,990 --> 00:59:54,400
but uh

1639
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:58,000
anyway uh so

1640
01:00:01,349 --> 01:00:00,240
it's a great clip to see john working

1641
01:00:03,030 --> 01:00:01,359
with these kids and

1642
01:00:04,710 --> 01:00:03,040
i'm sure that's how he always worked

1643
01:00:08,069 --> 01:00:04,720
with children

1644
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:08,079
you know yeah he uh he did he

1645
01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:09,520
literally got down on the floor with

1646
01:00:15,750 --> 01:00:12,720
kids to get to their level

1647
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:15,760
yeah yeah um and

1648
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,880
you know that that case i think i i say

1649
01:00:22,870 --> 01:00:20,160
this a lot in the show

1650
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:22,880
to me that's what i say in the top five

1651
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:23,680
cases

1652
01:00:27,109 --> 01:00:26,319
and it's right up near number one in my

1653
01:00:28,950 --> 01:00:27,119
opinion

1654
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:28,960
um because i've had i don't know three

1655
01:00:34,710 --> 01:00:31,040
or four i think four now

1656
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:34,720
of the witnesses as adults on

1657
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:37,119
and their stories are consistent and you

1658
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:38,000
know i mean i heard

1659
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:40,240
some of what they said that these uh

1660
01:00:44,470 --> 01:00:42,000
these uh witnesses have talked

1661
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:44,480
about and and it's really interesting i

1662
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:46,079
can't wait for randy's film to come out

1663
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:47,920
because it's really interesting how

1664
01:00:51,510 --> 01:00:50,160
it's affected their lives every you know

1665
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,520
every single one of them

1666
01:00:55,270 --> 01:00:53,680
some good some bad and i think you

1667
01:00:58,069 --> 01:00:55,280
mentioned in the book that

1668
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:58,079
um you know some of the parents were

1669
01:01:01,510 --> 01:01:00,000
looking at this as like evil spirits

1670
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:01,520
that type of thing

1671
01:01:07,349 --> 01:01:04,880
you know uh yeah the parents um uh

1672
01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:07,359
were as mystified as everybody else i

1673
01:01:10,630 --> 01:01:09,200
tell a couple funny stories in the book

1674
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:10,640
uh the believer

1675
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:14,720
um for example um when the uh

1676
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:17,200
this uh ship or whatever it was object

1677
01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:18,240
landed

1678
01:01:21,349 --> 01:01:20,079
um and the kids were freaked out and

1679
01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:21,359
they saw these two

1680
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:24,640
beings uh come out uh one of the little

1681
01:01:28,630 --> 01:01:25,440
girls ran

1682
01:01:30,309 --> 01:01:28,640
into the sweet shop where her mother was

1683
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:30,319
guarding the cash register she didn't

1684
01:01:33,910 --> 01:01:32,000
want to go out uh

1685
01:01:35,589 --> 01:01:33,920
you know and leave the cash register and

1686
01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:35,599
the candy uh where it could be

1687
01:01:38,230 --> 01:01:36,720
accessible to the kids

1688
01:01:39,910 --> 01:01:38,240
so a little girl came running in and

1689
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:39,920
screamed aliens

1690
01:01:43,270 --> 01:01:42,319
and the mother there said now now calm

1691
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:43,280
down uh

1692
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:45,440
be polite if they're aliens out there we

1693
01:01:48,549 --> 01:01:47,040
want them to know that we're you know

1694
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:48,559
nice and polite

1695
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:52,480
so they're a little kind of same candy

1696
01:01:57,670 --> 01:01:55,920
yeah and you know one of the interesting

1697
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:57,680
things about that whole episode

1698
01:02:02,069 --> 01:02:00,240
is uh how come there were no adults

1699
01:02:03,029 --> 01:02:02,079
there to witness this i mean it was just

1700
01:02:05,990 --> 01:02:03,039
extraordinary

1701
01:02:06,549 --> 01:02:06,000
that 60 kids were in the yard at recess

1702
01:02:11,349 --> 01:02:06,559
and

1703
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:11,359
so they asked john mack that you know

1704
01:02:15,029 --> 01:02:13,280
did the aliens figure out

1705
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:15,039
that this would be a time when no

1706
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:16,720
parents would be present

1707
01:02:20,549 --> 01:02:19,680
and his answer was you know i'm very bad

1708
01:02:24,789 --> 01:02:20,559
at alien

1709
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:24,799
psychology so they kept asking him why

1710
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:26,000
do the aliens do this

1711
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:28,079
why do the aliens do that he says i

1712
01:02:31,349 --> 01:02:29,520
don't know you know

1713
01:02:33,510 --> 01:02:31,359
but that's it just happened that way now

1714
01:02:35,029 --> 01:02:33,520
did they plan it that way or did it just

1715
01:02:37,910 --> 01:02:35,039
happen you know again

1716
01:02:38,549 --> 01:02:37,920
um but the parents as you heard were you

1717
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:38,559
know

1718
01:02:42,309 --> 01:02:39,920
believed that the kids had seen

1719
01:02:44,549 --> 01:02:42,319
something right

1720
01:02:46,069 --> 01:02:44,559
and you know it was a lot more than 62

1721
01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:46,079
because there were

1722
01:02:49,510 --> 01:02:48,960
there were the subprimary children that

1723
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:49,520
whole

1724
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:51,359
group was out there too and they they

1725
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:53,039
witnessed it but they they

1726
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:54,640
couldn't be interviewed because of their

1727
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:56,720
age ah interesting i didn't even know

1728
01:02:59,910 --> 01:02:57,440
that but

1729
01:03:01,430 --> 01:02:59,920
that and you know martin as you say as

1730
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:01,440
some of the kids are now grown up

1731
01:03:03,990 --> 01:03:02,480
they're all grown up

1732
01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:04,000
but some of the kids have come forward

1733
01:03:07,430 --> 01:03:05,760
and they're recounting their memories

1734
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:07,440
indelible memories

1735
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:09,839
of that day which they still remember

1736
01:03:12,069 --> 01:03:11,520
and they've drawn pictures of it i mean

1737
01:03:19,109 --> 01:03:12,079
it

1738
01:03:21,430 --> 01:03:19,119
um yeah i had one

1739
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:21,440
of the witnesses on in madagascar that's

1740
01:03:27,270 --> 01:03:23,039
where he is now

1741
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:27,280
and it really uh he's had

1742
01:03:31,109 --> 01:03:30,160
he's done some regressive you know

1743
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:31,119
hypnotism

1744
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:34,240
and and has worked things out

1745
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:36,400
and things are now in a positive way

1746
01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:37,520
they weren't they were

1747
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:38,960
it was really affecting him in a

1748
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,200
terrible way and he kind of turned his

1749
01:03:45,990 --> 01:03:43,440
life around and uh

1750
01:03:47,510 --> 01:03:46,000
and i thought um some of the things he

1751
01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:47,520
said for the person that didn't get a

1752
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:48,240
chance to

1753
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:50,720
see that interview it's on it's on uh

1754
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:51,680
it's on this

1755
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:54,799
uh youtube channel at some point it's

1756
01:03:58,870 --> 01:03:55,760
also over on

1757
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:58,880
randy nickerson's uh aerial school uh

1758
01:04:03,109 --> 01:03:59,920
phenomenon

1759
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:03,119
channel as well but he describes

1760
01:04:06,870 --> 01:04:06,000
these things as like skipping along you

1761
01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:06,880
know floating

1762
01:04:10,789 --> 01:04:09,440
like and like shooting off all of a

1763
01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:10,799
sudden and all of a sudden

1764
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:13,440
it blinking in and out of its existence

1765
01:04:15,430 --> 01:04:15,039
and moving in different places these

1766
01:04:18,069 --> 01:04:15,440
beings

1767
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:18,079
and you know just the accounts yeah are

1768
01:04:21,589 --> 01:04:19,119
consistent with

1769
01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:21,599
other people's accounts remember uh ken

1770
01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:23,440
arnold's first account

1771
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:26,480
of ufos back in 1947 were like stones

1772
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:28,319
skipping over the water

1773
01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:30,960
uh yeah so these same phrases keep

1774
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,680
coming up

1775
01:04:35,029 --> 01:04:33,520
it really is interesting and this is you

1776
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:35,039
know so many years later

1777
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:38,400
and the the movements that kind of

1778
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:40,960
this hovering or this bouncing movement

1779
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,640
that witnesses have reported

1780
01:04:45,910 --> 01:04:44,480
uh keeps coming up again and again now

1781
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:45,920
are they all in touch with each other

1782
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:46,880
they agree

1783
01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:49,760
to describe it in these certain terms or

1784
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:51,200
is this something that is a

1785
01:04:56,069 --> 01:04:54,000
that that is a general phenomenon that

1786
01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:56,079
everybody describes

1787
01:04:59,109 --> 01:04:58,559
right and and you know you think of

1788
01:05:01,910 --> 01:04:59,119
another

1789
01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:01,920
like really great thing that happened

1790
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:04,400
when it comes to john mack is

1791
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:07,359
if he wasn't you know i know the bbc had

1792
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:08,559
that reporter there

1793
01:05:13,829 --> 01:05:11,760
and and and did a good job but

1794
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:13,839
we wouldn't know anything about this if

1795
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:14,880
john mack

1796
01:05:18,390 --> 01:05:16,400
didn't do those interviews i don't think

1797
01:05:20,309 --> 01:05:18,400
they it would have made that much of an

1798
01:05:22,069 --> 01:05:20,319
impact on us i think you're right it

1799
01:05:23,589 --> 01:05:22,079
would have been a local story it would

1800
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:23,599
have been just another mystery but he

1801
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:25,200
elevated it to

1802
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:28,000
uh a higher plane because he was a

1803
01:05:31,750 --> 01:05:29,440
psychiatrist

1804
01:05:32,789 --> 01:05:31,760
uh and because he you know where he went

1805
01:05:34,150 --> 01:05:32,799
made news

1806
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:34,160
you know i want to say something else

1807
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:36,720
that i think is important to uh to clear

1808
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:37,119
up

1809
01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:39,680
that um these encounters were not only

1810
01:05:43,910 --> 01:05:42,000
traumatic as john mack saw them they

1811
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:43,920
carried with them a transformative

1812
01:05:47,430 --> 01:05:44,960
element

1813
01:05:48,549 --> 01:05:47,440
and he was basically alone in seeing

1814
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:48,559
this or

1815
01:05:53,589 --> 01:05:51,680
or propounding this that um

1816
01:05:54,789 --> 01:05:53,599
uh the people who who came to him were

1817
01:05:56,630 --> 01:05:54,799
stories of

1818
01:05:58,470 --> 01:05:56,640
you know reproductive procedures on the

1819
01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:58,480
ships they were certainly traumatic

1820
01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:01,680
uh and terrible uh frightening

1821
01:06:04,710 --> 01:06:02,880
experiences

1822
01:06:06,069 --> 01:06:04,720
to be helpless in the face of these

1823
01:06:08,309 --> 01:06:06,079
beings but

1824
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:08,319
many of them also said talking to john

1825
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:09,599
mack afterwards

1826
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:12,640
that they felt um some kind of

1827
01:06:16,069 --> 01:06:14,400
connection to the beings

1828
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:16,079
that they got a message or they got

1829
01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:17,920
messages to take better care of the

1830
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:18,880
planet

1831
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:21,119
uh that the earth is endangered and they

1832
01:06:25,109 --> 01:06:22,880
had to do something about it

1833
01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:25,119
uh some of them remembered seeing images

1834
01:06:29,829 --> 01:06:28,000
on the ships of apocalyptic destruction

1835
01:06:31,109 --> 01:06:29,839
like warnings that this this could

1836
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:31,119
happen to the planet

1837
01:06:34,230 --> 01:06:33,520
so there was that positive aspect that

1838
01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:34,240
almost he

1839
01:06:38,390 --> 01:06:36,880
almost alone he saw and bud hopkins and

1840
01:06:42,549 --> 01:06:38,400
dave jacobs the other

1841
01:06:45,510 --> 01:06:42,559
member of their research triumvirate

1842
01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:45,520
didn't really give much credit to bud

1843
01:06:48,309 --> 01:06:47,200
hopkins and particularly dave jacobs

1844
01:06:50,710 --> 01:06:48,319
thought that

1845
01:06:51,990 --> 01:06:50,720
the alien experience was almost you know

1846
01:06:54,150 --> 01:06:52,000
uniformly negative

1847
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:54,160
that it was traumatic it was real it was

1848
01:06:57,510 --> 01:06:55,520
happening in real time

1849
01:06:58,710 --> 01:06:57,520
it was not you know some subtle

1850
01:07:01,190 --> 01:06:58,720
phenomenon

1851
01:07:02,230 --> 01:07:01,200
and um that the aliens were trying to

1852
01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:02,240
take our dna

1853
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:04,319
for a hybrid race or some you know that

1854
01:07:08,710 --> 01:07:05,680
kind of uh

1855
01:07:10,950 --> 01:07:08,720
you know awful scenario but john

1856
01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:10,960
saw it as as something else that and

1857
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,280
something else

1858
01:07:17,029 --> 01:07:15,599
yes didn't was it john who said or

1859
01:07:20,309 --> 01:07:17,039
someone in your book

1860
01:07:23,430 --> 01:07:20,319
said that um it's possible

1861
01:07:25,910 --> 01:07:23,440
that they were shown these images or got

1862
01:07:27,190 --> 01:07:25,920
these messages to see a reaction i

1863
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:27,200
remember something like that

1864
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:30,480
i think that was bud hopkins uh i forgot

1865
01:07:37,589 --> 01:07:33,839
i think was bud hopkins uh hypothesis

1866
01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:37,599
that perhaps um uh they were testing

1867
01:07:39,990 --> 01:07:38,240
humans

1868
01:07:41,270 --> 01:07:40,000
just to see i mean there's a lot of

1869
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:41,280
speculation that

1870
01:07:45,029 --> 01:07:43,760
the procedures on the ships and so were

1871
01:07:48,710 --> 01:07:45,039
in order to

1872
01:07:50,309 --> 01:07:48,720
um understand how human beings operated

1873
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:50,319
including the sexual part

1874
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:52,559
uh there are a lot of stories of aliens

1875
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:53,839
watching a

1876
01:07:58,230 --> 01:07:56,559
sexual intercourse uh sometimes by

1877
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:58,240
abductees who knew each other they were

1878
01:08:02,309 --> 01:07:59,680
abducted together

1879
01:08:03,190 --> 01:08:02,319
and were sort of forced to to you know

1880
01:08:04,950 --> 01:08:03,200
make love

1881
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:04,960
as the aliens watched which was very

1882
01:08:08,950 --> 01:08:06,720
uncomfortable for them as they

1883
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:08,960
said later and then uh you know other

1884
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:10,640
people said well why the aliens keep

1885
01:08:15,029 --> 01:08:12,640
coming back to the same procedure

1886
01:08:18,070 --> 01:08:15,039
reproduction is not that complicated you

1887
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:18,080
can get a hygiene manual

1888
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:19,920
so they must be very bad scientists if

1889
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:21,440
they have to see this again and again

1890
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:22,640
and again

1891
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:24,400
and then so we have to go back to john

1892
01:08:27,349 --> 01:08:25,679
mack's statement again well

1893
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:27,359
i'm not an alien psychologist i don't

1894
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:28,560
know why they do these things we don't

1895
01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:29,839
even know if they exist

1896
01:08:33,910 --> 01:08:31,839
but if they exist we don't know why they

1897
01:08:37,430 --> 01:08:33,920
do the same things over and over again

1898
01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:37,440
um it's just part of the mystery

1899
01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:40,480
right yeah um the thing i say

1900
01:08:44,229 --> 01:08:43,120
a lot is like a lot of times we will

1901
01:08:47,910 --> 01:08:44,239
project

1902
01:08:49,510 --> 01:08:47,920
what our way of thinking is

1903
01:08:51,910 --> 01:08:49,520
into the way of whatever it is that's

1904
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,920
coming here which makes no sense because

1905
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,000
we have absolutely no idea

1906
01:08:57,669 --> 01:08:57,040
right and uh in that you know there was

1907
01:08:59,829 --> 01:08:57,679
a

1908
01:09:02,070 --> 01:08:59,839
um this just brings something else to

1909
01:09:04,950 --> 01:09:02,080
mind there was a conference at mit

1910
01:09:05,349 --> 01:09:04,960
in 1992 that i write about in my book

1911
01:09:07,430 --> 01:09:05,359
that

1912
01:09:09,990 --> 01:09:07,440
john mack attended and brought together

1913
01:09:12,229 --> 01:09:10,000
atomic physicists and folklorists and

1914
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:12,239
theologians and psychiatrists

1915
01:09:15,349 --> 01:09:14,480
uh some of the best scientific minds of

1916
01:09:18,390 --> 01:09:15,359
the day

1917
01:09:20,870 --> 01:09:18,400
trying to figure out what this abduction

1918
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:20,880
phenomenon amounted to and one of the

1919
01:09:25,910 --> 01:09:22,640
papers

1920
01:09:27,990 --> 01:09:25,920
dealt with the experiments um on

1921
01:09:29,349 --> 01:09:28,000
on the ships and and women particularly

1922
01:09:31,510 --> 01:09:29,359
told about

1923
01:09:32,709 --> 01:09:31,520
instruments that penetrated them and

1924
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:32,719
implanted them with

1925
01:09:36,309 --> 01:09:35,839
implants or remove their eggs and all

1926
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:36,319
that

1927
01:09:43,189 --> 01:09:40,159
and um a very astute

1928
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:43,199
doctor who who gave a paper at the

1929
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:44,400
conference said

1930
01:09:48,870 --> 01:09:47,359
that the medical procedures on the ships

1931
01:09:51,510 --> 01:09:48,880
were completely different

1932
01:09:52,470 --> 01:09:51,520
than normal earth earthbound medical

1933
01:09:54,149 --> 01:09:52,480
experiments

1934
01:09:56,709 --> 01:09:54,159
so it's not just a question of people

1935
01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:56,719
remembering a traumatic visit to a

1936
01:10:00,390 --> 01:09:58,480
doctor's office

1937
01:10:01,590 --> 01:10:00,400
they were very different procedures that

1938
01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:01,600
aliens would take out

1939
01:10:05,430 --> 01:10:03,920
someone's eye and put it back in they

1940
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:05,440
would take out organs

1941
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:07,440
they would open up the chest but they

1942
01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:09,120
were not interested in other things that

1943
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:10,880
human doctors are interested in

1944
01:10:15,830 --> 01:10:14,000
the lymph nodes and things like that so

1945
01:10:17,430 --> 01:10:15,840
um it was a very one of the most

1946
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:17,440
interesting papers that came out of that

1947
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:19,360
conference and it's collected in a book

1948
01:10:22,790 --> 01:10:22,000
a transcript of the conference but it

1949
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:22,800
shows

1950
01:10:27,830 --> 01:10:26,640
how uh the experiences on the ships as

1951
01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:27,840
related by the people

1952
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:28,960
i mean i don't know if they're real but

1953
01:10:32,229 --> 01:10:31,360
this is what the people said were really

1954
01:10:35,350 --> 01:10:32,239
very

1955
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:35,360
uh different from earthbound medical

1956
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:36,480
procedures and

1957
01:10:40,709 --> 01:10:38,400
um it's it's really part of the mystery

1958
01:10:43,110 --> 01:10:40,719
but it's a fascinating part

1959
01:10:44,070 --> 01:10:43,120
right um if you don't mind can you go a

1960
01:10:46,950 --> 01:10:44,080
little more into

1961
01:10:47,430 --> 01:10:46,960
the mit uh conference that happened i

1962
01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:47,440
think that's

1963
01:10:53,669 --> 01:10:51,040
fascinating i start the book actually

1964
01:10:54,550 --> 01:10:53,679
with the mit conference because it blew

1965
01:10:55,990 --> 01:10:54,560
my mind

1966
01:10:57,590 --> 01:10:56,000
that there would be a conference like

1967
01:11:00,070 --> 01:10:57,600
this at mit

1968
01:11:01,750 --> 01:11:00,080
now mit did not sponsor the conference

1969
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:01,760
uh it was just

1970
01:11:05,910 --> 01:11:04,560
it provided a venue uh for the

1971
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:05,920
conference because it would

1972
01:11:10,149 --> 01:11:08,800
as as the organizer atomic physicist at

1973
01:11:12,229 --> 01:11:10,159
mit pointed out

1974
01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:12,239
it would have looked very bad for mit to

1975
01:11:15,189 --> 01:11:13,920
censor the conference say no you can't

1976
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:15,199
use any of our space

1977
01:11:21,510 --> 01:11:18,560
so they provided a hall

1978
01:11:23,430 --> 01:11:21,520
and uh and it was privately sponsored by

1979
01:11:24,390 --> 01:11:23,440
this atomic physicist named dave

1980
01:11:26,709 --> 01:11:24,400
prichard

1981
01:11:28,310 --> 01:11:26,719
and mack co-sponsored and they recruited

1982
01:11:31,750 --> 01:11:28,320
all these other people to come

1983
01:11:33,830 --> 01:11:31,760
and for a week uh they gave papers

1984
01:11:35,590 --> 01:11:33,840
and and debated this now it was secret

1985
01:11:37,189 --> 01:11:35,600
at the time um

1986
01:11:39,350 --> 01:11:37,199
they had a number of journalists there

1987
01:11:40,870 --> 01:11:39,360
including cdb brian

1988
01:11:42,630 --> 01:11:40,880
who wrote a book about it close

1989
01:11:45,030 --> 01:11:42,640
encounters of the fourth kind

1990
01:11:46,310 --> 01:11:45,040
a very good book about the conference uh

1991
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:46,320
which came out later

1992
01:11:49,990 --> 01:11:48,800
everybody was sworn to secrecy at the

1993
01:11:51,990 --> 01:11:50,000
time

1994
01:11:53,189 --> 01:11:52,000
and they also produced a transcript of

1995
01:11:55,270 --> 01:11:53,199
the proceedings

1996
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:55,280
called alien discussions and it's on the

1997
01:11:58,550 --> 01:11:56,640
shelf behind me

1998
01:11:59,669 --> 01:11:58,560
uh it's a treasured part of my

1999
01:12:03,510 --> 01:11:59,679
collection because

2000
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:03,520
it is the most learned

2001
01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:07,040
examination i could find practically of

2002
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:09,120
the whole phenomenon you know top

2003
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:11,520
scientists discussing these things

2004
01:12:16,149 --> 01:12:14,400
uh and examining it from every which way

2005
01:12:17,990 --> 01:12:16,159
folklore is saying well you know in

2006
01:12:21,430 --> 01:12:18,000
ancient literature there were

2007
01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:21,440
uh other accounts of uh chariots in the

2008
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:22,880
sky and the bible

2009
01:12:28,550 --> 01:12:26,640
and chinese irish fairy stories i mean

2010
01:12:31,430 --> 01:12:28,560
you name it they had

2011
01:12:31,990 --> 01:12:31,440
people looking at it from every possible

2012
01:12:35,430 --> 01:12:32,000
uh

2013
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:35,440
angle um and that's what bothers me

2014
01:12:38,149 --> 01:12:37,040
about the so-called skeptics and

2015
01:12:40,390 --> 01:12:38,159
debunkers who

2016
01:12:41,910 --> 01:12:40,400
pronounce that this is crazy that's

2017
01:12:45,110 --> 01:12:41,920
couldn't be people are

2018
01:12:46,550 --> 01:12:45,120
nuts uh uh they're deluded uh they're

2019
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:46,560
making it up it's a

2020
01:12:49,590 --> 01:12:48,719
fabricating it's a hoax but they haven't

2021
01:12:52,390 --> 01:12:49,600
done the homework

2022
01:12:53,270 --> 01:12:52,400
and the homework is in these transcripts

2023
01:12:54,790 --> 01:12:53,280
uh that show

2024
01:12:56,310 --> 01:12:54,800
people really trying to figure out

2025
01:12:59,669 --> 01:12:56,320
what's going on something

2026
01:13:03,110 --> 01:12:59,679
real is going on on some level um

2027
01:13:06,390 --> 01:13:03,120
that deserves examination

2028
01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:06,400
i i agree and you know i think in the

2029
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:07,440
beginning part of

2030
01:13:14,149 --> 01:13:10,719
the the book it talks you talk about um

2031
01:13:15,430 --> 01:13:14,159
the sleep paralysis phenomenon and how

2032
01:13:18,070 --> 01:13:15,440
over the years

2033
01:13:19,189 --> 01:13:18,080
um you know people have imagined things

2034
01:13:21,270 --> 01:13:19,199
and how

2035
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:21,280
you know that was like looked on looked

2036
01:13:25,030 --> 01:13:22,239
upon

2037
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:25,040
but then again a lot of people you know

2038
01:13:29,030 --> 01:13:26,239
to argue that point

2039
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:29,040
as being everything you know a lot of

2040
01:13:32,310 --> 01:13:29,760
people

2041
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:32,320
are are awake when these abduction

2042
01:13:35,990 --> 01:13:33,360
situations happen

2043
01:13:36,470 --> 01:13:36,000
in in daylight and all that but i mean

2044
01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:36,480
um

2045
01:13:40,470 --> 01:13:38,159
you know i hate using the term but they

2046
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:40,480
they said that what was the old hag

2047
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:42,960
syndrome or something they that people

2048
01:13:46,149 --> 01:13:44,640
swore they saw someone over them that

2049
01:13:49,350 --> 01:13:46,159
was trying to smother them

2050
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:49,360
it's pretty scary uh you know what what

2051
01:13:53,270 --> 01:13:51,199
john mack realized uh

2052
01:13:55,510 --> 01:13:53,280
later in his career was that there was a

2053
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:55,520
whole syndrome

2054
01:14:01,030 --> 01:13:57,840
of paranormal experiences that really

2055
01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:01,040
were different from alien abduction

2056
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:04,080
but that were similarly mysterious and

2057
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:07,360
one of them was this old hag syndrome

2058
01:14:12,870 --> 01:14:11,120
that a psychologist named david hufford

2059
01:14:15,189 --> 01:14:12,880
investigated and i have his book and i

2060
01:14:18,470 --> 01:14:15,199
talk about him early early in my book

2061
01:14:20,709 --> 01:14:18,480
where um particularly in newfoundland uh

2062
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:20,719
there were stories of people during the

2063
01:14:24,229 --> 01:14:22,640
night being aware of some kind of an

2064
01:14:27,110 --> 01:14:24,239
evil spirit

2065
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:27,120
climbing on their bed and pressing on

2066
01:14:29,830 --> 01:14:28,800
their chest and choking them and they

2067
01:14:32,630 --> 01:14:29,840
reeked of evil

2068
01:14:34,149 --> 01:14:32,640
i mean a very visceral reaction and it

2069
01:14:35,990 --> 01:14:34,159
happened to david hufford

2070
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:36,000
i mean the guy writing the book talks

2071
01:14:38,790 --> 01:14:37,600
about it happened to him as a college

2072
01:14:41,430 --> 01:14:38,800
student

2073
01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:41,440
the same thing he distinctly remembered

2074
01:14:45,030 --> 01:14:42,400
some some

2075
01:14:45,990 --> 01:14:45,040
footsteps padding into his his college

2076
01:14:48,390 --> 01:14:46,000
dorm room

2077
01:14:49,110 --> 01:14:48,400
this uh some creature leaning on his

2078
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:49,120
chest

2079
01:14:52,630 --> 01:14:51,840
strangling him killing him choking him

2080
01:14:55,750 --> 01:14:52,640
and

2081
01:14:59,910 --> 01:14:55,760
he was paralyzed he couldn't move

2082
01:15:02,390 --> 01:14:59,920
and anyway it's just another example

2083
01:15:05,510 --> 01:15:02,400
of these strange experiences that that

2084
01:15:09,110 --> 01:15:05,520
cannot be explained away

2085
01:15:11,030 --> 01:15:09,120
and as i said john mack later in his

2086
01:15:14,950 --> 01:15:11,040
career realized that there's a whole

2087
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:14,960
broader area of things like crop circles

2088
01:15:21,750 --> 01:15:15,440
and

2089
01:15:25,350 --> 01:15:21,760
that

2090
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:25,360
life and yet people

2091
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:28,560
keep coming up with these stories

2092
01:15:33,590 --> 01:15:31,920
yeah um and it's awful hard to you know

2093
01:15:35,110 --> 01:15:33,600
i mean i've i've

2094
01:15:38,149 --> 01:15:35,120
a lot of times i've been on the fence in

2095
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:38,159
the past about abduction cases and and i

2096
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:40,400
still go kind of back and forth

2097
01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:42,640
on the whole situation it is a really

2098
01:15:47,030 --> 01:15:44,400
hard pill to swallow

2099
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:47,040
you know how the the fact that you know

2100
01:15:50,229 --> 01:15:48,080
i do believe that

2101
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:50,239
people are experiencing something i'm

2102
01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:52,560
just not really sure what it is

2103
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:55,199
but uh you know i mean to me i don't

2104
01:15:57,350 --> 01:15:56,880
know how you feel about this but to me

2105
01:15:59,110 --> 01:15:57,360
if

2106
01:16:01,350 --> 01:15:59,120
i had something like that going on in my

2107
01:16:03,430 --> 01:16:01,360
life i don't know how i could function

2108
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:03,440
otherwise you know do anything else you

2109
01:16:08,470 --> 01:16:06,480
know well it just seems like people

2110
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:08,480
been very traumatized a lot of them saw

2111
01:16:14,070 --> 01:16:11,040
psychiatrists before john mack

2112
01:16:15,110 --> 01:16:14,080
um and they they told you know they said

2113
01:16:16,229 --> 01:16:15,120
that

2114
01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,239
other psychiatrists were not

2115
01:16:20,390 --> 01:16:18,480
particularly sympathetic uh

2116
01:16:21,990 --> 01:16:20,400
prescribed drugs said that they were

2117
01:16:24,149 --> 01:16:22,000
suffering nightmares

2118
01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:24,159
and when john mack came along he said no

2119
01:16:27,189 --> 01:16:25,360
they're not nightmare because i know

2120
01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:27,199
what nightmares are and nightmares don't

2121
01:16:31,350 --> 01:16:29,199
have the immediacy

2122
01:16:33,189 --> 01:16:31,360
of these stories these people recounting

2123
01:16:35,669 --> 01:16:33,199
their experiences would cry

2124
01:16:37,430 --> 01:16:35,679
and scream and weep and curse i mean it

2125
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:37,440
was very real to them

2126
01:16:41,270 --> 01:16:39,840
and max said i know what you know affect

2127
01:16:44,229 --> 01:16:41,280
the scientific term

2128
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:44,239
looks like for these these reactions and

2129
01:16:47,189 --> 01:16:45,440
they were genuine

2130
01:16:49,110 --> 01:16:47,199
they were not put on and they were not

2131
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:49,120
you know feigned

2132
01:16:56,229 --> 01:16:54,159
um so um um

2133
01:16:57,590 --> 01:16:56,239
but the but these people had real

2134
01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:57,600
traumas in their lives

2135
01:17:01,830 --> 01:16:59,840
and they were shell-shocked and many of

2136
01:17:03,430 --> 01:17:01,840
them didn't even want to come forward

2137
01:17:04,870 --> 01:17:03,440
they would you know make up ways to

2138
01:17:09,270 --> 01:17:04,880
contact mac through

2139
01:17:15,350 --> 01:17:12,470
right right what would you say was uh

2140
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:15,360
when you were doing this book and i know

2141
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:17,120
you discovered a lot of new things

2142
01:17:23,189 --> 01:17:20,560
was there something that just stands out

2143
01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:23,199
to you the most of something you found

2144
01:17:29,669 --> 01:17:25,840
out about john mack

2145
01:17:31,110 --> 01:17:29,679
um well i was very struck with his

2146
01:17:34,950 --> 01:17:31,120
personal story

2147
01:17:37,189 --> 01:17:34,960
um how uh

2148
01:17:38,709 --> 01:17:37,199
you know he was eight and a half months

2149
01:17:42,070 --> 01:17:38,719
old when his mother

2150
01:17:44,550 --> 01:17:42,080
died of appendicitis and um

2151
01:17:46,630 --> 01:17:44,560
penicillin had just been invented it was

2152
01:17:49,990 --> 01:17:46,640
uh 1930

2153
01:17:52,550 --> 01:17:50,000
but not in popular use yet and that

2154
01:17:53,750 --> 01:17:52,560
trauma uh which he came back to again

2155
01:17:56,950 --> 01:17:53,760
and again

2156
01:17:58,630 --> 01:17:56,960
uh really shaped his life and uh

2157
01:18:00,070 --> 01:17:58,640
when he was going through the holotropic

2158
01:18:02,709 --> 01:18:00,080
breathing

2159
01:18:03,830 --> 01:18:02,719
uh that elevated him to altered states

2160
01:18:06,550 --> 01:18:03,840
of consciousness he

2161
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:06,560
he imagined himself back in the womb

2162
01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:07,520
which is common

2163
01:18:11,270 --> 01:18:10,320
actually in these breathing procedures

2164
01:18:12,870 --> 01:18:11,280
um

2165
01:18:14,709 --> 01:18:12,880
people go back to their earliest

2166
01:18:17,030 --> 01:18:14,719
memories you know even

2167
01:18:18,950 --> 01:18:17,040
back to before they were born so he

2168
01:18:21,189 --> 01:18:18,960
remembered himself in the womb and

2169
01:18:22,950 --> 01:18:21,199
being pushed out of the birth canal and

2170
01:18:26,630 --> 01:18:22,960
his mother turning blue

2171
01:18:29,189 --> 01:18:26,640
as she struggled and he uh

2172
01:18:30,870 --> 01:18:29,199
he he wrote about this in his journals

2173
01:18:34,740 --> 01:18:30,880
which i had access to

2174
01:18:35,830 --> 01:18:34,750
um and it was a very clear um

2175
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:35,840
[Music]

2176
01:18:41,110 --> 01:18:39,120
if you call it a memory to him uh he

2177
01:18:42,790 --> 01:18:41,120
he somehow was able to go back and

2178
01:18:45,110 --> 01:18:42,800
recreate this

2179
01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:45,120
um i found that you know really

2180
01:18:47,510 --> 01:18:47,120
extraordinary and then of course as i

2181
01:18:51,270 --> 01:18:47,520
said

2182
01:18:53,750 --> 01:18:51,280
uh informed his later um search for the

2183
01:18:54,550 --> 01:18:53,760
the missing in in the in the universe

2184
01:18:57,189 --> 01:18:54,560
and

2185
01:18:58,310 --> 01:18:57,199
actually uh early in the book i tell the

2186
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:58,320
story which i found

2187
01:19:02,630 --> 01:19:00,480
fascinating where he himself was

2188
01:19:06,310 --> 01:19:02,640
hypnotized by a brazilian

2189
01:19:09,350 --> 01:19:06,320
uh psychologist and hypnotist

2190
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:09,360
and he's he's going through uh he's you

2191
01:19:13,189 --> 01:19:10,880
know remembering or or

2192
01:19:14,390 --> 01:19:13,199
uh reciting all these stories he's

2193
01:19:16,790 --> 01:19:14,400
flying through space

2194
01:19:19,189 --> 01:19:16,800
and then he says to her wait a minute i

2195
01:19:20,070 --> 01:19:19,199
just got an amazing insight can i tell

2196
01:19:22,149 --> 01:19:20,080
you

2197
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:22,159
in other words can i wake up enough to

2198
01:19:26,870 --> 01:19:24,000
you know out of the trance to

2199
01:19:29,030 --> 01:19:26,880
to tell you and she says yes go on and

2200
01:19:31,590 --> 01:19:29,040
he says i just realized why i'm so

2201
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,600
interested in uh alien life in the

2202
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:33,360
universe because

2203
01:19:38,470 --> 01:19:36,719
um i had this trauma as a child and i

2204
01:19:39,590 --> 01:19:38,480
was missing my mother and i've always

2205
01:19:41,669 --> 01:19:39,600
been looking

2206
01:19:43,990 --> 01:19:41,679
for for life in the universe that that

2207
01:19:45,990 --> 01:19:44,000
would make me feel less alone

2208
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:46,000
i mean he said that sort of breaking his

2209
01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:47,679
trance to say that

2210
01:19:51,270 --> 01:19:50,159
so he provided that key to the story

2211
01:19:54,950 --> 01:19:51,280
himself

2212
01:19:57,510 --> 01:19:54,960
um and i found that very revealing

2213
01:19:58,390 --> 01:19:57,520
yeah amazing amazing what was it like

2214
01:20:01,110 --> 01:19:58,400
reading i mean i

2215
01:20:02,790 --> 01:20:01,120
i'm in i'm lucky enough to be one of

2216
01:20:06,070 --> 01:20:02,800
these people i get to read

2217
01:20:08,070 --> 01:20:06,080
a lot of uh early papers and you know

2218
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:08,080
handwritings from like george washington

2219
01:20:12,550 --> 01:20:09,760
and really special people

2220
01:20:12,870 --> 01:20:12,560
um what was it like to hold his journal

2221
01:20:17,270 --> 01:20:12,880
and

2222
01:20:19,910 --> 01:20:17,280
was a big journaler

2223
01:20:21,510 --> 01:20:19,920
he journaled a lot uh he was first of

2224
01:20:22,709 --> 01:20:21,520
all his handwriting was sometimes

2225
01:20:25,910 --> 01:20:22,719
difficult to

2226
01:20:28,950 --> 01:20:25,920
to fathom uh because

2227
01:20:30,629 --> 01:20:28,960
he liked all doctors he would scribble

2228
01:20:32,390 --> 01:20:30,639
after a while i got used to his

2229
01:20:34,390 --> 01:20:32,400
scribbles and i could sort of figure out

2230
01:20:37,510 --> 01:20:34,400
when he did this it meant this

2231
01:20:40,229 --> 01:20:37,520
um but it was kind of wireistic and

2232
01:20:40,950 --> 01:20:40,239
it made me a little uncomfortable um

2233
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:40,960
because

2234
01:20:45,830 --> 01:20:44,880
um i as his son danny said to me you

2235
01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:45,840
know

2236
01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:48,320
i think if he were around he might not

2237
01:20:52,229 --> 01:20:49,600
have liked

2238
01:20:53,270 --> 01:20:52,239
your use he said to me your ralph your

2239
01:20:56,870 --> 01:20:53,280
use of

2240
01:20:58,870 --> 01:20:56,880
his um analysis tapes for example

2241
01:21:00,950 --> 01:20:58,880
um and that's probably true if he'd been

2242
01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:00,960
around to ask if i'd said john do you

2243
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:02,560
mind if i'd listened to your

2244
01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:04,400
analysis tapes he might very well have

2245
01:21:08,709 --> 01:21:05,840
said yeah i mined

2246
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:08,719
that's very private um so he couldn't

2247
01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:09,199
object

2248
01:21:14,070 --> 01:21:11,760
which is you know sad in a way and it

2249
01:21:16,390 --> 01:21:14,080
was helpful to me as a biographer but i

2250
01:21:18,070 --> 01:21:16,400
felt voyeuristic

2251
01:21:20,550 --> 01:21:18,080
there were some things i came across in

2252
01:21:23,590 --> 01:21:20,560
his journals that

2253
01:21:24,550 --> 01:21:23,600
really was very raw he talked about his

2254
01:21:27,990 --> 01:21:24,560
romances

2255
01:21:29,669 --> 01:21:28,000
his wife sally his feelings and

2256
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:29,679
i didn't put everything i found in the

2257
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:31,360
journals in the book i thought it was

2258
01:21:35,590 --> 01:21:35,040
not fair to him um i i gave enough of it

2259
01:21:37,430 --> 01:21:35,600
to

2260
01:21:39,430 --> 01:21:37,440
give people a sample so there'd be

2261
01:21:41,350 --> 01:21:39,440
nothing totally

2262
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:41,360
uh i mean i didn't withhold anything

2263
01:21:44,709 --> 01:21:43,040
that was totally different i would have

2264
01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:44,719
put a different slant on

2265
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,080
something but there was some details

2266
01:21:51,430 --> 01:21:48,480
that were just unpleasant and

2267
01:21:51,750 --> 01:21:51,440
um he talked about his drug taking he he

2268
01:21:54,950 --> 01:21:51,760
took

2269
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:54,960
lsd he was an ex an experimenter an

2270
01:21:59,430 --> 01:21:56,719
adventurer a couple of times

2271
01:22:00,390 --> 01:21:59,440
late yeah and he tried ayahuasca that

2272
01:22:03,030 --> 01:22:00,400
vomitacious

2273
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:03,040
uh south american drink that you know

2274
01:22:06,149 --> 01:22:04,320
makes you throw up and gives you

2275
01:22:08,950 --> 01:22:06,159
hallucinations he did that

2276
01:22:11,270 --> 01:22:08,960
um so he it was courageous in a way to

2277
01:22:13,030 --> 01:22:11,280
to subject himself to that i wouldn't do

2278
01:22:16,149 --> 01:22:13,040
it but but he did it

2279
01:22:17,669 --> 01:22:16,159
right right um we have a question up

2280
01:22:19,990 --> 01:22:17,679
here and i'm going to put it

2281
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:20,000
um on the screen but also want to let

2282
01:22:23,030 --> 01:22:21,040
everyone know that

2283
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:23,040
after we get done with this question and

2284
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:24,080
move on

2285
01:22:26,950 --> 01:22:25,679
uh we are going to open up the phone

2286
01:22:27,910 --> 01:22:26,960
lines and i'll put that number up in

2287
01:22:29,189 --> 01:22:27,920
just a minute

2288
01:22:31,590 --> 01:22:29,199
so richard want to know could you

2289
01:22:34,149 --> 01:22:31,600
discuss the different views that mac

2290
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:34,159
hopkins and jacobs had about the

2291
01:22:38,470 --> 01:22:35,040
motivations

2292
01:22:40,070 --> 01:22:38,480
of the ets uh yeah i alluded to this

2293
01:22:44,070 --> 01:22:40,080
earlier but it's a good question

2294
01:22:46,470 --> 01:22:44,080
um uh jacobs and hopkins were

2295
01:22:47,189 --> 01:22:46,480
more together on this uh believing that

2296
01:22:51,990 --> 01:22:47,199
the

2297
01:22:54,790 --> 01:22:52,000
were occurring in a recognizable reality

2298
01:22:57,990 --> 01:22:54,800
they were not subtle uh they were real

2299
01:23:01,189 --> 01:23:00,149
so that was one difference john mack

2300
01:23:02,870 --> 01:23:01,199
increasingly began

2301
01:23:04,310 --> 01:23:02,880
thought that they were happening in some

2302
01:23:07,590 --> 01:23:04,320
twilight zone

2303
01:23:09,030 --> 01:23:07,600
that uh really involved a penetration of

2304
01:23:12,149 --> 01:23:09,040
our reality

2305
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:12,159
um by some means unknown

2306
01:23:17,110 --> 01:23:15,360
uh some interdimensionality or something

2307
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:17,120
so that's one thing the reality of the

2308
01:23:20,790 --> 01:23:18,000
abductions

2309
01:23:21,990 --> 01:23:20,800
was a difference another difference was

2310
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:22,000
um

2311
01:23:27,110 --> 01:23:25,760
uh jacob's uh j jacobs particularly but

2312
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:27,120
hopkins also

2313
01:23:31,910 --> 01:23:30,880
believed that the um alien beings were

2314
01:23:35,189 --> 01:23:31,920
out to

2315
01:23:38,870 --> 01:23:35,199
take our dna create a hybrid race

2316
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:38,880
um they didn't they were not immoral

2317
01:23:44,149 --> 01:23:42,320
uh in that they didn't deliberately set

2318
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:44,159
out to traumatize humans but what they

2319
01:23:47,430 --> 01:23:46,080
did traumatized humans they didn't care

2320
01:23:50,629 --> 01:23:47,440
much

2321
01:23:53,830 --> 01:23:50,639
so they were amoral maybe um

2322
01:23:55,110 --> 01:23:53,840
and uh and evil essentially evil

2323
01:23:57,750 --> 01:23:55,120
from the standpoint of the people

2324
01:24:00,629 --> 01:23:57,760
abducted john mack as i said felt that

2325
01:24:01,590 --> 01:24:00,639
it was also that they were trump the

2326
01:24:04,070 --> 01:24:01,600
experiences weren't

2327
01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:04,080
undeniably traumatic but that there was

2328
01:24:09,430 --> 01:24:06,960
a transformative element to them

2329
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:09,440
and and the ma and the messages that the

2330
01:24:13,430 --> 01:24:10,239
aliens

2331
01:24:15,189 --> 01:24:13,440
would leave uh through telepathy people

2332
01:24:17,430 --> 01:24:15,199
said gosh they spoke english

2333
01:24:18,550 --> 01:24:17,440
well they communicated telepathically

2334
01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:18,560
according to

2335
01:24:23,030 --> 01:24:20,400
the experiencers they got the messages

2336
01:24:24,390 --> 01:24:23,040
in their head the messages were that

2337
01:24:26,310 --> 01:24:24,400
they have to take better care of the

2338
01:24:28,629 --> 01:24:26,320
planet and not eat you know

2339
01:24:30,310 --> 01:24:28,639
not eat animals not destroy the planet

2340
01:24:33,030 --> 01:24:30,320
not poison the planet

2341
01:24:33,830 --> 01:24:33,040
um and the people came away with a sort

2342
01:24:36,790 --> 01:24:33,840
of a

2343
01:24:38,709 --> 01:24:36,800
love some of them actually love the

2344
01:24:39,669 --> 01:24:38,719
alien beings they had almost like love

2345
01:24:43,430 --> 01:24:39,679
affairs

2346
01:24:44,550 --> 01:24:43,440
with um some of the the beings that they

2347
01:24:47,270 --> 01:24:44,560
encountered

2348
01:24:49,270 --> 01:24:47,280
and uh felt that there was a bond and

2349
01:24:49,910 --> 01:24:49,280
and they were also bonding the humans

2350
01:24:52,950 --> 01:24:49,920
felt with

2351
01:24:54,790 --> 01:24:52,960
uh with a deity with a source of all

2352
01:24:57,189 --> 01:24:54,800
creation a light

2353
01:24:58,149 --> 01:24:57,199
uh so they would become almost religious

2354
01:25:00,070 --> 01:24:58,159
about it

2355
01:25:02,310 --> 01:25:00,080
um and you didn't hear much of that from

2356
01:25:03,750 --> 01:25:02,320
hopkins and jacobs

2357
01:25:05,910 --> 01:25:03,760
yeah i think that's kind of a

2358
01:25:08,629 --> 01:25:05,920
fascinating uh

2359
01:25:09,590 --> 01:25:08,639
way to put it and i listened to there

2360
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:09,600
were the four

2361
01:25:13,350 --> 01:25:11,600
uh people that were involved in the

2362
01:25:15,510 --> 01:25:13,360
allagash abduction

2363
01:25:16,550 --> 01:25:15,520
and one of them was the the twins jim

2364
01:25:20,070 --> 01:25:16,560
and jack

2365
01:25:23,430 --> 01:25:20,080
um and i i've thought

2366
01:25:26,629 --> 01:25:23,440
where yeah i've talked to jack uh uh

2367
01:25:28,550 --> 01:25:26,639
in person but jim i never have and

2368
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:28,560
i listened to an interview with jim and

2369
01:25:31,830 --> 01:25:30,480
and he felt like he had another

2370
01:25:35,270 --> 01:25:31,840
experience

2371
01:25:36,790 --> 01:25:35,280
and then um the message this is it was a

2372
01:25:40,149 --> 01:25:36,800
profound message

2373
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:40,159
of that he got out of the whole thing

2374
01:25:46,550 --> 01:25:43,440
was that and you mentioned the word love

2375
01:25:47,270 --> 01:25:46,560
uh love was something carried across the

2376
01:25:49,750 --> 01:25:47,280
universe

2377
01:25:50,950 --> 01:25:49,760
which i thought was very hopeful if you

2378
01:25:53,110 --> 01:25:50,960
ask me

2379
01:25:54,950 --> 01:25:53,120
yeah and i i i say that in my book too

2380
01:25:59,110 --> 01:25:54,960
that john mack believed in a

2381
01:26:03,350 --> 01:25:59,120
benign uh cosmic uh intelligence and

2382
01:26:06,870 --> 01:26:03,360
cosmic love yeah that's fascinating

2383
01:26:10,149 --> 01:26:06,880
so the line is open and that number is

2384
01:26:13,270 --> 01:26:10,159
eight five five four seven two five four

2385
01:26:16,229 --> 01:26:13,280
eight three and uh bill is standing by

2386
01:26:17,189 --> 01:26:16,239
uh we have someone right now on the line

2387
01:26:20,070 --> 01:26:17,199
i'll bring

2388
01:26:21,990 --> 01:26:20,080
that in and just sec right here okay we

2389
01:26:25,189 --> 01:26:22,000
have uh charlie johnson from new

2390
01:26:27,030 --> 01:26:25,199
hampshire charlie how are you welcome to

2391
01:26:30,629 --> 01:26:27,040
the show

2392
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:30,639
thank you very much hi

2393
01:26:34,629 --> 01:26:32,960
we're not too far away as the crow flies

2394
01:26:36,870 --> 01:26:34,639
i'm over in massachusetts

2395
01:26:39,270 --> 01:26:36,880
so welcome you have a question for our

2396
01:26:41,830 --> 01:26:39,280
guest tonight

2397
01:26:43,590 --> 01:26:41,840
uh yes uh actually uh i wanted ralph to

2398
01:26:48,550 --> 01:26:43,600
know that uh

2399
01:26:50,950 --> 01:26:48,560
i had seen a ufo in 1965 that the same

2400
01:26:52,790 --> 01:26:50,960
i think the same one that was part of

2401
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:52,800
the incident in exeter

2402
01:26:58,709 --> 01:26:56,000
huh really that's interesting

2403
01:27:02,830 --> 01:27:01,270
yeah mention that in your book too ralph

2404
01:27:05,669 --> 01:27:02,840
i do

2405
01:27:09,270 --> 01:27:05,679
yeah go ahead charlie

2406
01:27:11,430 --> 01:27:09,280
it's a oh well um

2407
01:27:12,790 --> 01:27:11,440
i teach at uh phillips exeter academy i

2408
01:27:15,350 --> 01:27:12,800
teach saxophone

2409
01:27:19,030 --> 01:27:15,360
and well roughly i know you're charlie i

2410
01:27:22,870 --> 01:27:19,040
know you're charlie

2411
01:27:23,669 --> 01:27:22,880
right so um but i never mentioned this

2412
01:27:27,669 --> 01:27:23,679
to you

2413
01:27:29,350 --> 01:27:27,679
um right i was about oh 18 years or

2414
01:27:32,310 --> 01:27:29,360
old or so and staying at my

2415
01:27:34,470 --> 01:27:32,320
grandmother's house in lee new hampshire

2416
01:27:35,510 --> 01:27:34,480
and and i woke up in the middle of the

2417
01:27:38,149 --> 01:27:35,520
night

2418
01:27:39,830 --> 01:27:38,159
uh you know and walked to the window i

2419
01:27:42,310 --> 01:27:39,840
don't know why i mean it just

2420
01:27:43,990 --> 01:27:42,320
i don't would not normally do that and

2421
01:27:46,629 --> 01:27:44,000
as i looked up i saw this

2422
01:27:48,070 --> 01:27:46,639
large object overhead with blinking red

2423
01:27:51,750 --> 01:27:48,080
lights

2424
01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:51,760
and um my father was in the military

2425
01:27:56,950 --> 01:27:55,360
and was in uh lighter than aircraft and

2426
01:27:58,709 --> 01:27:56,960
i thought for a moment that i might be

2427
01:28:00,790 --> 01:27:58,719
looking at a blimp

2428
01:28:03,030 --> 01:28:00,800
but then i realized two things one it

2429
01:28:05,189 --> 01:28:03,040
wasn't making any sound

2430
01:28:06,390 --> 01:28:05,199
and two uh there weren't any blimps

2431
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:06,400
stationed up at p's

2432
01:28:10,550 --> 01:28:08,880
airbase at that time so there's no

2433
01:28:12,629 --> 01:28:10,560
reason that that'd be this large

2434
01:28:14,629 --> 01:28:12,639
object floating around and blinking red

2435
01:28:16,390 --> 01:28:14,639
lights and then

2436
01:28:17,910 --> 01:28:16,400
you know i just went back to bed i

2437
01:28:19,430 --> 01:28:17,920
didn't think much about it it was it was

2438
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:19,440
rather strange but

2439
01:28:24,149 --> 01:28:22,560
um it floated off and i

2440
01:28:26,310 --> 01:28:24,159
let it go and then i didn't really think

2441
01:28:28,790 --> 01:28:26,320
about it until years later when i heard

2442
01:28:30,310 --> 01:28:28,800
about the incident in exeter and

2443
01:28:31,910 --> 01:28:30,320
which occurred right around the same

2444
01:28:35,189 --> 01:28:31,920
time in kensington

2445
01:28:38,709 --> 01:28:35,199
and and uh you know i started thinking

2446
01:28:43,110 --> 01:28:41,110
well you know that raises the question

2447
01:28:45,030 --> 01:28:43,120
of whether you had any missing time i

2448
01:28:47,669 --> 01:28:45,040
mean you said you went to bed

2449
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:47,679
um but in many of these cases people see

2450
01:28:50,550 --> 01:28:49,199
a ufo like that

2451
01:28:51,990 --> 01:28:50,560
and then they don't remember anything

2452
01:28:53,350 --> 01:28:52,000
else and then they wake up later

2453
01:28:56,709 --> 01:28:53,360
somewhere else or

2454
01:29:00,470 --> 01:28:56,719
with their pajamas put on backwards or

2455
01:29:01,510 --> 01:29:00,480
upside down in bed and uh or with muddy

2456
01:29:04,070 --> 01:29:01,520
feet

2457
01:29:05,910 --> 01:29:04,080
and they realize especially when they

2458
01:29:08,629 --> 01:29:05,920
talk to someone like john mack

2459
01:29:09,110 --> 01:29:08,639
that something happened in between the

2460
01:29:12,709 --> 01:29:09,120
time

2461
01:29:15,750 --> 01:29:12,719
they saw the ufo and uh

2462
01:29:18,070 --> 01:29:15,760
you know they they woke up again

2463
01:29:21,910 --> 01:29:18,080
so um are you sure charlie that you

2464
01:29:25,750 --> 01:29:24,310
as far as i know um i mean it was it was

2465
01:29:28,870 --> 01:29:25,760
rather strange

2466
01:29:30,709 --> 01:29:28,880
uh psychologically because i i didn't

2467
01:29:32,070 --> 01:29:30,719
think much of it at the time you know

2468
01:29:34,310 --> 01:29:32,080
when i saw it

2469
01:29:36,070 --> 01:29:34,320
it was just kind of like something there

2470
01:29:37,510 --> 01:29:36,080
and i didn't really have an explanation

2471
01:29:39,590 --> 01:29:37,520
for it

2472
01:29:40,629 --> 01:29:39,600
i probably mentioned it to people at the

2473
01:29:42,629 --> 01:29:40,639
time but

2474
01:29:43,910 --> 01:29:42,639
nobody you know really took it seriously

2475
01:29:46,070 --> 01:29:43,920
so it

2476
01:29:47,830 --> 01:29:46,080
didn't make any sense to me until years

2477
01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:47,840
later when i read about the incident in

2478
01:29:51,910 --> 01:29:49,199
exeter then it started to

2479
01:29:53,510 --> 01:29:51,920
occur to me that that's my might have

2480
01:29:55,669 --> 01:29:53,520
been what i saw

2481
01:29:56,550 --> 01:29:55,679
right that's intriguing i mean that is

2482
01:29:59,110 --> 01:29:56,560
one of the

2483
01:30:00,870 --> 01:29:59,120
best documented cases around it it was

2484
01:30:01,990 --> 01:30:00,880
right around the time of the betty and

2485
01:30:04,470 --> 01:30:02,000
bonnie hill

2486
01:30:06,149 --> 01:30:04,480
abduction case which is the you know the

2487
01:30:09,430 --> 01:30:06,159
mother lode of all

2488
01:30:13,189 --> 01:30:09,440
abduction cases um so

2489
01:30:19,830 --> 01:30:17,510
anyway during the program

2490
01:30:21,590 --> 01:30:19,840
thank you all right thanks so much

2491
01:30:24,229 --> 01:30:21,600
charlie for calling in

2492
01:30:27,590 --> 01:30:24,239
all right next we have luis from

2493
01:30:30,629 --> 01:30:27,600
california how are you luis

2494
01:30:32,070 --> 01:30:30,639
hey martin killer show as always uh

2495
01:30:34,550 --> 01:30:32,080
thanks for shouting out the big one home

2496
01:30:37,910 --> 01:30:34,560
i truly appreciate it uh yeah

2497
01:30:39,430 --> 01:30:37,920
that's awesome i can't wait i can't wait

2498
01:30:41,590 --> 01:30:39,440
to have you on

2499
01:30:43,350 --> 01:30:41,600
um which by the way ralph you have an

2500
01:30:47,030 --> 01:30:43,360
invitation if you'd like to come

2501
01:30:47,510 --> 01:30:47,040
talk some uh uap disclosure and activism

2502
01:30:49,910 --> 01:30:47,520
efforts

2503
01:30:53,350 --> 01:30:49,920
you're more than welcome to sir uh my

2504
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:57,030
uh my question was in the second season

2505
01:31:00,070 --> 01:30:58,480
of unidentified i'm not sure if you've

2506
01:31:01,110 --> 01:31:00,080
seen this or not there was a

2507
01:31:02,950 --> 01:31:01,120
psychiatrist

2508
01:31:04,310 --> 01:31:02,960
i i was looking for her name but i could

2509
01:31:08,149 --> 01:31:04,320
not find her

2510
01:31:11,510 --> 01:31:08,159
um and she had i guess sort of a

2511
01:31:14,709 --> 01:31:11,520
differing opinion from uh what dr

2512
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:14,719
john mack was doing and i wanted to know

2513
01:31:18,310 --> 01:31:16,320
first off you had seen that if you

2514
01:31:21,189 --> 01:31:18,320
hadn't that's okay

2515
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:21,199
my other question would be what is the

2516
01:31:27,590 --> 01:31:23,760
best argument for maybe

2517
01:31:29,830 --> 01:31:27,600
john mack's work wasn't um up the snuff

2518
01:31:31,189 --> 01:31:29,840
is there an argument having seen a

2519
01:31:34,629 --> 01:31:31,199
counter argument that

2520
01:31:37,189 --> 01:31:34,639
uh that maybe questions his work or or

2521
01:31:37,910 --> 01:31:37,199
maybe he was off i mean i don't mean to

2522
01:31:40,229 --> 01:31:37,920
i don't know

2523
01:31:41,350 --> 01:31:40,239
i'm i can't question a harvard you know

2524
01:31:43,030 --> 01:31:41,360
psychiatrist

2525
01:31:44,470 --> 01:31:43,040
but i'm just curious you know because i

2526
01:31:46,149 --> 01:31:44,480
always like to look at the other side of

2527
01:31:46,870 --> 01:31:46,159
things and see if you know maybe there's

2528
01:31:50,310 --> 01:31:46,880
a

2529
01:31:51,669 --> 01:31:50,320
they've

2530
01:31:53,350 --> 01:31:51,679
talked about that in season two so i

2531
01:31:55,750 --> 01:31:53,360
want to get your opinion yeah

2532
01:31:58,229 --> 01:31:55,760
great question terrific question uh you

2533
01:31:59,910 --> 01:31:58,239
might be referring to susan clancy i i

2534
01:32:01,110 --> 01:31:59,920
did see unidentified i'm trying to

2535
01:32:03,990 --> 01:32:01,120
remember back to

2536
01:32:04,790 --> 01:32:04,000
that season she wrote a book uh

2537
01:32:07,990 --> 01:32:04,800
basically

2538
01:32:10,870 --> 01:32:08,000
um describing these experiences as

2539
01:32:11,510 --> 01:32:10,880
some aspect of sleep paralysis as i

2540
01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:11,520
remember

2541
01:32:15,350 --> 01:32:14,480
i have her book um and harvard was very

2542
01:32:18,629 --> 01:32:15,360
happy to

2543
01:32:21,910 --> 01:32:18,639
cite her work as a counter

2544
01:32:26,629 --> 01:32:21,920
countering you know max

2545
01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:26,639
so um if he had a flaw i think it was

2546
01:32:33,669 --> 01:32:30,400
uh jumping too quickly to uh

2547
01:32:35,510 --> 01:32:33,679
uh publicize his research uh he he

2548
01:32:37,590 --> 01:32:35,520
really didn't get a good chance to peer

2549
01:32:38,310 --> 01:32:37,600
review it he tried but it was rejected

2550
01:32:42,470 --> 01:32:38,320
by

2551
01:32:44,070 --> 01:32:42,480
um prestigious magazines and

2552
01:32:45,669 --> 01:32:44,080
journals psychiatric journals i

2553
01:32:48,790 --> 01:32:45,679
described that in the book

2554
01:32:52,070 --> 01:32:48,800
um so it was not subject to uh

2555
01:32:55,030 --> 01:32:52,080
rigorous peer analysis and um

2556
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:55,040
and he was kind of quick to announce his

2557
01:32:59,430 --> 01:32:55,920
conclusions

2558
01:33:03,030 --> 01:32:59,440
uh publicly at harvard um but

2559
01:33:04,470 --> 01:33:03,040
um i i am not aware of anybody who has a

2560
01:33:07,590 --> 01:33:04,480
better explanation

2561
01:33:11,510 --> 01:33:07,600
or an explanation to solve this mystery

2562
01:33:14,070 --> 01:33:11,520
uh and basically um

2563
01:33:15,590 --> 01:33:14,080
negate what mac found and let me go over

2564
01:33:17,830 --> 01:33:15,600
those things very quickly

2565
01:33:19,510 --> 01:33:17,840
mac found that first of all the people

2566
01:33:21,910 --> 01:33:19,520
were not mentally ill

2567
01:33:23,030 --> 01:33:21,920
okay it was not a construct of of

2568
01:33:26,390 --> 01:33:23,040
insanity

2569
01:33:28,709 --> 01:33:26,400
um they were not um

2570
01:33:30,550 --> 01:33:28,719
deliberately faking they were not out

2571
01:33:32,390 --> 01:33:30,560
for publicity on the contrary they were

2572
01:33:34,550 --> 01:33:32,400
shying away from publicity

2573
01:33:36,870 --> 01:33:34,560
uh he found it the stories were

2574
01:33:39,590 --> 01:33:36,880
generally consistent

2575
01:33:41,350 --> 01:33:39,600
but that they differed among each other

2576
01:33:43,510 --> 01:33:41,360
with little details so they could not be

2577
01:33:45,669 --> 01:33:43,520
the same story circulating

2578
01:33:47,510 --> 01:33:45,679
he found it affected young children who

2579
01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:47,520
were too young to make up a story like

2580
01:33:52,709 --> 01:33:49,440
you saw at the aerial school

2581
01:33:55,110 --> 01:33:52,719
um those those kids are quite credible

2582
01:33:55,910 --> 01:33:55,120
in in the way they describe what they

2583
01:33:58,950 --> 01:33:55,920
saw in the

2584
01:34:01,669 --> 01:33:58,960
similar accounts um and

2585
01:34:04,310 --> 01:34:01,679
you know quite straightforward um in

2586
01:34:07,030 --> 01:34:04,320
some cases there were

2587
01:34:07,350 --> 01:34:07,040
scars on the bodies of people who said

2588
01:34:09,669 --> 01:34:07,360
that

2589
01:34:11,669 --> 01:34:09,679
remember they had been abducted and were

2590
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:11,679
subject to some medical procedures

2591
01:34:15,590 --> 01:34:13,520
scars that they didn't remember having

2592
01:34:16,310 --> 01:34:15,600
before again it's very difficult to

2593
01:34:18,070 --> 01:34:16,320
prove

2594
01:34:20,310 --> 01:34:18,080
that they couldn't have had these scars

2595
01:34:21,990 --> 01:34:20,320
but one person mac interviewed was a

2596
01:34:23,189 --> 01:34:22,000
quadriplegic who could not have

2597
01:34:26,709 --> 01:34:23,199
inflicted

2598
01:34:29,350 --> 01:34:26,719
scars upon himself and lastly

2599
01:34:30,629 --> 01:34:29,360
outside their houses sometimes there was

2600
01:34:34,229 --> 01:34:30,639
evidence of

2601
01:34:36,709 --> 01:34:34,239
a ufo landing the grass was pressed down

2602
01:34:37,669 --> 01:34:36,719
it wouldn't grow right you know in the

2603
01:34:40,149 --> 01:34:37,679
spring

2604
01:34:42,870 --> 01:34:40,159
um and and lastly i should have

2605
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:42,880
mentioned this is another

2606
01:34:47,990 --> 01:34:46,000
factor in his conclusions sometimes

2607
01:34:49,270 --> 01:34:48,000
there were other witnesses as i said the

2608
01:34:51,430 --> 01:34:49,280
parents who came down

2609
01:34:52,310 --> 01:34:51,440
and found the kids not in their beds and

2610
01:34:56,070 --> 01:34:52,320
then they showed up

2611
01:34:57,910 --> 01:34:56,080
afterwards occasionally there were

2612
01:34:59,430 --> 01:34:57,920
corroborating accounts from other people

2613
01:35:01,910 --> 01:34:59,440
not often so

2614
01:35:03,590 --> 01:35:01,920
all these things max said if someone can

2615
01:35:05,590 --> 01:35:03,600
describe

2616
01:35:07,350 --> 01:35:05,600
a hypothesis that takes account of all

2617
01:35:07,990 --> 01:35:07,360
these things he says i'm willing to buy

2618
01:35:12,470 --> 01:35:08,000
it

2619
01:35:16,149 --> 01:35:14,629
very interesting all right well i i

2620
01:35:18,149 --> 01:35:16,159
appreciate the explanation

2621
01:35:20,310 --> 01:35:18,159
and uh and thank you for letting me ask

2622
01:35:22,709 --> 01:35:20,320
a question appreciate it guys

2623
01:35:24,709 --> 01:35:22,719
all right louise good to talk to you

2624
01:35:28,070 --> 01:35:24,719
i'll talk to you soon

2625
01:35:31,430 --> 01:35:28,080
all right we have another guest and

2626
01:35:33,350 --> 01:35:31,440
that is uh kevin kevin is a actually a

2627
01:35:34,790 --> 01:35:33,360
very good supporter of the show i want

2628
01:35:39,910 --> 01:35:34,800
to thank you for that kevin

2629
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:44,550
you there kevin

2630
01:35:48,390 --> 01:35:46,790
uh austin i'm not hearing anything do

2631
01:35:51,669 --> 01:35:48,400
you hear anything there

2632
01:35:53,669 --> 01:35:51,679
evan martin yeah hey

2633
01:35:55,030 --> 01:35:53,679
hey thanks for i had a problem with my

2634
01:35:58,070 --> 01:35:55,040
phone switching over

2635
01:35:59,830 --> 01:35:58,080
um yeah it's it's a it's a privilege to

2636
01:36:03,030 --> 01:35:59,840
talk to both you gentlemen

2637
01:36:06,149 --> 01:36:03,040
my question is um

2638
01:36:09,430 --> 01:36:06,159
uh this so before i realized that

2639
01:36:11,510 --> 01:36:09,440
ufology was really had a dovetail to

2640
01:36:15,109 --> 01:36:11,520
what my experiences were

2641
01:36:16,550 --> 01:36:15,119
i was really deep into the whole jungian

2642
01:36:18,390 --> 01:36:16,560
thing with the

2643
01:36:19,590 --> 01:36:18,400
aspects of the subconscious and

2644
01:36:22,709 --> 01:36:19,600
everything

2645
01:36:22,950 --> 01:36:22,719
and i had experience with abduction but

2646
01:36:52,070 --> 01:36:22,960
i

2647
01:36:54,950 --> 01:36:52,080
much

2648
01:36:56,149 --> 01:36:54,960
experience with uh people who who say

2649
01:36:59,430 --> 01:36:56,159
look i realize

2650
01:37:01,590 --> 01:36:59,440
i i was abducted but i wasn't physically

2651
01:37:03,910 --> 01:37:01,600
abducted

2652
01:37:04,950 --> 01:37:03,920
i'll tell you a story that's a good

2653
01:37:06,870 --> 01:37:04,960
question

2654
01:37:08,470 --> 01:37:06,880
first of all there are many things that

2655
01:37:11,189 --> 01:37:08,480
come up that do not fit

2656
01:37:12,709 --> 01:37:11,199
the core abduction narrative which is

2657
01:37:15,990 --> 01:37:12,719
interesting so it's not just

2658
01:37:17,830 --> 01:37:16,000
one experience repeated uh

2659
01:37:19,350 --> 01:37:17,840
the same you know every time there are

2660
01:37:21,189 --> 01:37:19,360
things that don't fit

2661
01:37:22,950 --> 01:37:21,199
and there are people who looked into

2662
01:37:25,430 --> 01:37:22,960
this who say that's

2663
01:37:27,430 --> 01:37:25,440
the key almost to this whole thing are

2664
01:37:27,990 --> 01:37:27,440
the things that don't fit which shows

2665
01:37:30,310 --> 01:37:28,000
that

2666
01:37:31,910 --> 01:37:30,320
it's more unruly a phenomenon than

2667
01:37:34,070 --> 01:37:31,920
anyone can imagine

2668
01:37:36,310 --> 01:37:34,080
so one of the cases uh that came up at

2669
01:37:37,669 --> 01:37:36,320
the mit conference actually that's in my

2670
01:37:39,590 --> 01:37:37,679
book

2671
01:37:41,030 --> 01:37:39,600
uh and it's really a most fascinating

2672
01:37:43,750 --> 01:37:41,040
case um

2673
01:37:46,149 --> 01:37:43,760
it's a woman who fainted on the street

2674
01:37:49,189 --> 01:37:46,159
uh into the arms of her husband

2675
01:37:52,149 --> 01:37:49,199
and when she fainted she

2676
01:37:52,870 --> 01:37:52,159
uh remembered uh or felt her mind

2677
01:37:55,830 --> 01:37:52,880
traveling

2678
01:37:57,750 --> 01:37:55,840
up into space and encountering these uh

2679
01:37:59,189 --> 01:37:57,760
having these experiences almost like an

2680
01:38:01,430 --> 01:37:59,199
abduction experience

2681
01:38:03,350 --> 01:38:01,440
but her body remained in the arms of her

2682
01:38:06,390 --> 01:38:03,360
husband

2683
01:38:08,550 --> 01:38:06,400
so that sort of describes uh

2684
01:38:10,470 --> 01:38:08,560
what what you are describing to me in

2685
01:38:12,870 --> 01:38:10,480
the sense that the mind traveled but the

2686
01:38:15,189 --> 01:38:12,880
body stayed put

2687
01:38:16,870 --> 01:38:15,199
so that's another you know aspect of

2688
01:38:19,669 --> 01:38:16,880
this that suggests that

2689
01:38:20,229 --> 01:38:19,679
um it could affect the mind and not the

2690
01:38:21,830 --> 01:38:20,239
body

2691
01:38:24,149 --> 01:38:21,840
so it's not necessarily a physical

2692
01:38:33,510 --> 01:38:24,159
abduction that the person is gone

2693
01:38:37,590 --> 01:38:36,310
so i definitely had never left my bed

2694
01:38:39,350 --> 01:38:37,600
but

2695
01:38:41,109 --> 01:38:39,360
there was of course you get into the

2696
01:38:43,669 --> 01:38:41,119
whole you know

2697
01:38:45,270 --> 01:38:43,679
the sexual side and everything like that

2698
01:38:47,590 --> 01:38:45,280
and that was the explanation

2699
01:38:50,310 --> 01:38:47,600
that i challenged them on and they had

2700
01:38:51,910 --> 01:38:50,320
to go through a lot of explaining to me

2701
01:38:54,870 --> 01:38:51,920
and they showed me three or four

2702
01:38:57,350 --> 01:38:54,880
different iterations

2703
01:38:57,990 --> 01:38:57,360
to try and get me calmed down to let

2704
01:39:00,870 --> 01:38:58,000
them go

2705
01:39:02,310 --> 01:39:00,880
but but there was and then when i woke

2706
01:39:04,310 --> 01:39:02,320
the next day

2707
01:39:06,310 --> 01:39:04,320
there was physical evidence that hey

2708
01:39:09,590 --> 01:39:06,320
wait a minute this had

2709
01:39:11,910 --> 01:39:09,600
actually something was going on

2710
01:39:14,950 --> 01:39:11,920
right i don't know if it's dimensions or

2711
01:39:17,990 --> 01:39:14,960
whatever but it's very odd

2712
01:39:18,470 --> 01:39:18,000
well testimony like yours is exactly

2713
01:39:21,669 --> 01:39:18,480
what

2714
01:39:23,590 --> 01:39:21,679
here you are

2715
01:39:25,430 --> 01:39:23,600
describing an experience was absolutely

2716
01:39:27,430 --> 01:39:25,440
real to you you can describe it very

2717
01:39:31,030 --> 01:39:27,440
well

2718
01:39:33,669 --> 01:39:31,040
and yet uh proof obviously is is absent

2719
01:39:34,390 --> 01:39:33,679
lacking because these things never

2720
01:39:35,750 --> 01:39:34,400
provided

2721
01:39:38,790 --> 01:39:35,760
the kind of absolute proof there was

2722
01:39:40,550 --> 01:39:38,800
never any photographic evidence that

2723
01:39:42,390 --> 01:39:40,560
anybody could come up with unlike with

2724
01:39:45,189 --> 01:39:42,400
ufos uh

2725
01:39:45,750 --> 01:39:45,199
uh alien materializations or whatever

2726
01:39:48,870 --> 01:39:45,760
they are

2727
01:39:50,709 --> 01:39:48,880
don't come out on photographs uh

2728
01:39:51,910 --> 01:39:50,719
the cameras malfunction or they don't

2729
01:39:54,629 --> 01:39:51,920
show anything

2730
01:39:57,270 --> 01:39:54,639
um randy nicholson encountered this one

2731
01:40:00,149 --> 01:39:57,280
he set up cameras with trip wires

2732
01:40:01,430 --> 01:40:00,159
so uh so that's the problem your

2733
01:40:04,550 --> 01:40:01,440
anecdotal account

2734
01:40:07,030 --> 01:40:04,560
is very very persuasive but uh

2735
01:40:08,950 --> 01:40:07,040
there's no way to back it up my story

2736
01:40:10,790 --> 01:40:08,960
yeah you're right it's just my story and

2737
01:40:12,390 --> 01:40:10,800
and it went through uh it went through

2738
01:40:15,910 --> 01:40:12,400
looking like a gray

2739
01:40:16,229 --> 01:40:15,920
to looking like a uh an elf to looking

2740
01:40:17,830 --> 01:40:16,239
like

2741
01:40:19,669 --> 01:40:17,840
several different things before it ended

2742
01:40:21,910 --> 01:40:19,679
up looking like a bug

2743
01:40:24,229 --> 01:40:21,920
right i mean just all over the place

2744
01:40:27,669 --> 01:40:24,239
just showing me whatever it could

2745
01:40:30,229 --> 01:40:27,679
to calm me down for whatever it

2746
01:40:33,350 --> 01:40:30,239
it needed to accomplish yeah anyway it's

2747
01:40:34,950 --> 01:40:33,360
fascinating fascinating

2748
01:40:37,350 --> 01:40:34,960
in a way this kind of reminds me a

2749
01:40:37,990 --> 01:40:37,360
little bit of of when people are talking

2750
01:40:41,590 --> 01:40:38,000
about their

2751
01:40:44,870 --> 01:40:41,600
nads neds the near-death experiences

2752
01:40:47,510 --> 01:40:44,880
right you know um

2753
01:40:48,470 --> 01:40:47,520
kind of hovering above the bottom or

2754
01:40:50,310 --> 01:40:48,480
whatever

2755
01:40:51,910 --> 01:40:50,320
that's right and often they can describe

2756
01:40:53,830 --> 01:40:51,920
the conversation

2757
01:40:55,430 --> 01:40:53,840
uh well you know leslie kane just had

2758
01:40:57,109 --> 01:40:55,440
this six-part um

2759
01:40:58,550 --> 01:40:57,119
netflix series based on her book

2760
01:41:00,790 --> 01:40:58,560
surviving death

2761
01:41:02,070 --> 01:41:00,800
and what among the accounts where people

2762
01:41:07,109 --> 01:41:02,080
would be

2763
01:41:08,709 --> 01:41:07,119
working over them to resuscitate them

2764
01:41:10,229 --> 01:41:08,719
and they would feel themselves flying up

2765
01:41:12,310 --> 01:41:10,239
to the ceiling looking down

2766
01:41:14,470 --> 01:41:12,320
and afterwards they could reproduce the

2767
01:41:16,310 --> 01:41:14,480
conversations of all the doctors

2768
01:41:17,910 --> 01:41:16,320
and the doctors were dumbfounded and

2769
01:41:18,790 --> 01:41:17,920
said that no way this person could have

2770
01:41:21,189 --> 01:41:18,800
heard this

2771
01:41:23,109 --> 01:41:21,199
uh even people in far corners of the

2772
01:41:25,350 --> 01:41:23,119
room were talking and this person

2773
01:41:28,550 --> 01:41:25,360
when they came back recounted the whole

2774
01:41:30,870 --> 01:41:28,560
thing i mean it's astounding

2775
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:30,880
right right i spent a lot of time i

2776
01:41:35,669 --> 01:41:32,719
spent a lot of time uh martin and

2777
01:41:37,590 --> 01:41:35,679
sydney trying to develop the lucid

2778
01:41:40,390 --> 01:41:37,600
dreaming experience right

2779
01:41:41,590 --> 01:41:40,400
being able to get into that and keep it

2780
01:41:43,910 --> 01:41:41,600
on that edge

2781
01:41:44,870 --> 01:41:43,920
so you can stay aware and that's where

2782
01:41:48,149 --> 01:41:44,880
this sort of

2783
01:41:50,070 --> 01:41:48,159
is a just an offspring of that so

2784
01:41:51,270 --> 01:41:50,080
anyway thank you very much for taking my

2785
01:41:53,830 --> 01:41:51,280
question

2786
01:41:58,030 --> 01:41:53,840
all right thank you for the call um so

2787
01:42:02,550 --> 01:41:59,510
855-472-5483

2788
01:42:06,070 --> 01:42:02,560
and along and along those lines uh ralph

2789
01:42:09,350 --> 01:42:06,080
did did john mack ever explore

2790
01:42:11,510 --> 01:42:09,360
anything else you know before

2791
01:42:12,950 --> 01:42:11,520
i know he was doing this up to the point

2792
01:42:15,189 --> 01:42:12,960
where he he

2793
01:42:16,310 --> 01:42:15,199
you know had the accident and died but

2794
01:42:19,590 --> 01:42:16,320
did he explore

2795
01:42:25,350 --> 01:42:19,600
other unusual topics

2796
01:42:29,430 --> 01:42:27,430
first of all uh shortly before he died

2797
01:42:30,470 --> 01:42:29,440
he got very interested in crop circles

2798
01:42:33,830 --> 01:42:30,480
and he went on a trip

2799
01:42:36,229 --> 01:42:33,840
to uh to england to lie in them and to

2800
01:42:38,229 --> 01:42:36,239
feel the energy he got very enthusiastic

2801
01:42:38,950 --> 01:42:38,239
about that just like he got enthusiastic

2802
01:42:41,510 --> 01:42:38,960
about

2803
01:42:42,149 --> 01:42:41,520
uh alien abduction and he i feel the

2804
01:42:44,149 --> 01:42:42,159
power

2805
01:42:46,870 --> 01:42:44,159
and he you know he really got something

2806
01:42:49,430 --> 01:42:46,880
from it no way these could be man-made

2807
01:42:49,990 --> 01:42:49,440
uh he was very enthusiastic about that

2808
01:42:53,189 --> 01:42:50,000
um

2809
01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:53,199
wow he yeah uh he had a little ritual

2810
01:42:55,350 --> 01:42:54,880
before some of his meetings where they

2811
01:42:58,470 --> 01:42:55,360
would

2812
01:43:00,470 --> 01:42:58,480
throw runes viking runes stones

2813
01:43:01,510 --> 01:43:00,480
to foretell the future they'd reach into

2814
01:43:04,310 --> 01:43:01,520
a bag

2815
01:43:05,830 --> 01:43:04,320
pull out a stone this goes back to you

2816
01:43:08,950 --> 01:43:05,840
know ancient germanic

2817
01:43:11,189 --> 01:43:08,960
ritual you know around early

2818
01:43:12,629 --> 01:43:11,199
uh early centuries after you know be

2819
01:43:15,350 --> 01:43:12,639
safe a.d

2820
01:43:17,030 --> 01:43:15,360
um people would pull a rune out of a bag

2821
01:43:18,390 --> 01:43:17,040
and and then they would consult a book

2822
01:43:20,070 --> 01:43:18,400
and the room

2823
01:43:21,750 --> 01:43:20,080
the meaning of the rune would come clear

2824
01:43:23,830 --> 01:43:21,760
and one of them one of the runes

2825
01:43:25,990 --> 01:43:23,840
seemed to have foretold john's death

2826
01:43:29,750 --> 01:43:26,000
where he picked a blank rune

2827
01:43:33,030 --> 01:43:29,760
so he was into that uh he was into

2828
01:43:36,950 --> 01:43:33,040
uh i mean uh and

2829
01:43:39,270 --> 01:43:36,960
and most famously he was into uh uh

2830
01:43:40,790 --> 01:43:39,280
you know uh after death after life

2831
01:43:43,189 --> 01:43:40,800
experiences he was

2832
01:43:44,550 --> 01:43:43,199
trying to do a book on a young woman who

2833
01:43:47,109 --> 01:43:44,560
died elizabeth tarr

2834
01:43:48,390 --> 01:43:47,119
the daughter of russell talk the great

2835
01:43:51,510 --> 01:43:48,400
remote viewing

2836
01:43:52,390 --> 01:43:51,520
pioneer uh her his daughter was also a

2837
01:43:56,070 --> 01:43:52,400
great genius

2838
01:43:58,629 --> 01:43:56,080
and uh interested in paranormal

2839
01:44:00,629 --> 01:43:58,639
events and she died of brain cancer and

2840
01:44:02,470 --> 01:44:00,639
afterwards

2841
01:44:04,470 --> 01:44:02,480
there were stories of her spirit coming

2842
01:44:05,669 --> 01:44:04,480
back and being seen by people and john

2843
01:44:07,830 --> 01:44:05,679
was very

2844
01:44:10,470 --> 01:44:07,840
taken with that he knew elizabeth and

2845
01:44:13,990 --> 01:44:10,480
was entranced by her story

2846
01:44:17,510 --> 01:44:14,000
and he was preparing a book um about it

2847
01:44:19,030 --> 01:44:17,520
uh when he himself was killed so um

2848
01:44:21,030 --> 01:44:19,040
so he was involved you know if there was

2849
01:44:23,830 --> 01:44:21,040
an if there was a weird experience

2850
01:44:27,189 --> 01:44:23,840
somewhere he was on it he wanted to know

2851
01:44:30,390 --> 01:44:27,199
uh what what what it was all about

2852
01:44:31,669 --> 01:44:30,400
yeah well i i think that's great that he

2853
01:44:34,310 --> 01:44:31,679
was that

2854
01:44:35,270 --> 01:44:34,320
open-minded and you know when you're

2855
01:44:37,669 --> 01:44:35,280
tenured

2856
01:44:38,470 --> 01:44:37,679
you you do have a lot of free will

2857
01:44:40,390 --> 01:44:38,480
wheeling

2858
01:44:42,629 --> 01:44:40,400
but let's talk about that you know he

2859
01:44:44,709 --> 01:44:42,639
was investigated and how far that went

2860
01:44:48,070 --> 01:44:44,719
and and how close was he

2861
01:44:51,189 --> 01:44:48,080
to getting uh pushed out well

2862
01:44:52,790 --> 01:44:51,199
pretty close uh what happened is uh you

2863
01:44:54,550 --> 01:44:52,800
know he kept thinking i better tell my

2864
01:44:55,430 --> 01:44:54,560
harvard superiors about the work i'm

2865
01:44:58,550 --> 01:44:55,440
doing

2866
01:45:00,390 --> 01:44:58,560
um so he finally uh

2867
01:45:01,990 --> 01:45:00,400
decided he was gonna have a meeting with

2868
01:45:03,430 --> 01:45:02,000
his uh

2869
01:45:05,669 --> 01:45:03,440
you know the head of the medical school

2870
01:45:06,470 --> 01:45:05,679
and when he showed up uh the guy handed

2871
01:45:08,229 --> 01:45:06,480
him a letter

2872
01:45:10,310 --> 01:45:08,239
saying that the the harvard medical

2873
01:45:13,109 --> 01:45:10,320
school had already decided to

2874
01:45:14,629 --> 01:45:13,119
um convene a committee to investigate

2875
01:45:16,709 --> 01:45:14,639
him and as i said they called

2876
01:45:18,550 --> 01:45:16,719
they said this is not an inquisition

2877
01:45:20,229 --> 01:45:18,560
john so immediately he thought well

2878
01:45:21,910 --> 01:45:20,239
if it's not an inquisition why are they

2879
01:45:24,950 --> 01:45:21,920
using the word inquisition

2880
01:45:28,229 --> 01:45:24,960
but it was secret uh it was an effort to

2881
01:45:31,669 --> 01:45:28,239
you know um discredit him uh or

2882
01:45:33,910 --> 01:45:31,679
understand his uh his methods uh to

2883
01:45:34,870 --> 01:45:33,920
you know understand why he was so

2884
01:45:39,270 --> 01:45:34,880
enthusiastic

2885
01:45:40,950 --> 01:45:39,280
uh with his um you know with his uh

2886
01:45:42,390 --> 01:45:40,960
patience or subjects he never could they

2887
01:45:44,390 --> 01:45:42,400
never could figure out whether they were

2888
01:45:47,510 --> 01:45:44,400
research subjects or patients but

2889
01:45:50,870 --> 01:45:47,520
anyway so they subjected him to a law

2890
01:45:53,030 --> 01:45:50,880
ordeal over a year where they

2891
01:45:54,070 --> 01:45:53,040
questioned him and they questioned his

2892
01:45:56,950 --> 01:45:54,080
experiencers

2893
01:45:57,430 --> 01:45:56,960
and they read his books and they tried

2894
01:46:00,310 --> 01:45:57,440
to

2895
01:46:01,109 --> 01:46:00,320
see if his um if he was billing him

2896
01:46:04,070 --> 01:46:01,119
properly

2897
01:46:05,990 --> 01:46:04,080
uh which he was not um if he was

2898
01:46:07,669 --> 01:46:06,000
validating people by saying you know

2899
01:46:08,310 --> 01:46:07,679
you're having an abduction experience

2900
01:46:10,390 --> 01:46:08,320
even

2901
01:46:12,629 --> 01:46:10,400
you know uh in other words was he

2902
01:46:13,510 --> 01:46:12,639
implanting the idea in them which he

2903
01:46:16,629 --> 01:46:13,520
wasn't

2904
01:46:17,669 --> 01:46:16,639
um so they investigated from every

2905
01:46:19,830 --> 01:46:17,679
particular

2906
01:46:21,750 --> 01:46:19,840
standpoint he had cracker jack lawyers

2907
01:46:24,709 --> 01:46:21,760
by the way one one lawyer was eric

2908
01:46:29,990 --> 01:46:27,510
outed the priest abuse scandal in boston

2909
01:46:33,270 --> 01:46:30,000
in the movie spotlight he's a character

2910
01:46:35,030 --> 01:46:33,280
another was danny sheehan who had uh uh

2911
01:46:37,990 --> 01:46:35,040
investigated the ku klux klan and the

2912
01:46:41,510 --> 01:46:38,000
reagan uh karan contra arms scandal

2913
01:46:45,030 --> 01:46:41,520
um and the karen silkwood affair

2914
01:46:46,870 --> 01:46:45,040
um and his lawyers were they really held

2915
01:46:48,550 --> 01:46:46,880
uh harvard's feet to the fire and in the

2916
01:46:51,830 --> 01:46:48,560
end harvard said you know

2917
01:46:53,430 --> 01:46:51,840
uh we can't find any fault with his

2918
01:46:55,750 --> 01:46:53,440
methods uh he shouldn't be so

2919
01:46:56,790 --> 01:46:55,760
enthusiastic or you john shouldn't be so

2920
01:46:58,390 --> 01:46:56,800
enthusiastic

2921
01:46:59,990 --> 01:46:58,400
and he agreed yeah i was a little too

2922
01:47:03,109 --> 01:47:00,000
enthusiastic

2923
01:47:04,149 --> 01:47:03,119
don't do it again okay i won't um and

2924
01:47:05,990 --> 01:47:04,159
that was it

2925
01:47:08,149 --> 01:47:06,000
but it cost them hundreds of thousands

2926
01:47:09,189 --> 01:47:08,159
of dollars in legal expenses it dragged

2927
01:47:11,590 --> 01:47:09,199
him through the ringer

2928
01:47:13,189 --> 01:47:11,600
and it was a terrible experience do you

2929
01:47:14,229 --> 01:47:13,199
think that was also like the ending of

2930
01:47:16,470 --> 01:47:14,239
his marriage too

2931
01:47:17,990 --> 01:47:16,480
that part of it no i think the marriage

2932
01:47:19,910 --> 01:47:18,000
was uh

2933
01:47:22,149 --> 01:47:19,920
first of all he was so obsessed with his

2934
01:47:25,350 --> 01:47:22,159
work that his his marriage suffered

2935
01:47:28,550 --> 01:47:25,360
um sally had basically had it with his

2936
01:47:29,750 --> 01:47:28,560
romances uh which as i said john made no

2937
01:47:31,510 --> 01:47:29,760
big secret of

2938
01:47:34,149 --> 01:47:31,520
uh he was not the kind of guy to skulk

2939
01:47:35,990 --> 01:47:34,159
around you know cheating but

2940
01:47:37,910 --> 01:47:36,000
sally knew pretty quickly when he was

2941
01:47:39,430 --> 01:47:37,920
enamored of a new

2942
01:47:40,950 --> 01:47:39,440
person there were only two or three

2943
01:47:43,350 --> 01:47:40,960
people you know like that but

2944
01:47:44,790 --> 01:47:43,360
they were intense when they when they

2945
01:47:48,629 --> 01:47:44,800
you know happened

2946
01:47:50,229 --> 01:47:48,639
um so that's what ended the marriage um

2947
01:47:52,390 --> 01:47:50,239
but she was a good supporter of him to

2948
01:47:53,430 --> 01:47:52,400
the end and she uh she realized he was

2949
01:47:55,990 --> 01:47:53,440
he was a genius

2950
01:47:57,350 --> 01:47:56,000
and and she loved him throughout so i

2951
01:47:59,030 --> 01:47:57,360
tell that story in the book it was

2952
01:48:02,070 --> 01:47:59,040
really painful to see

2953
01:48:02,870 --> 01:48:02,080
uh how she struggled with her uh her

2954
01:48:04,790 --> 01:48:02,880
faith in him

2955
01:48:06,229 --> 01:48:04,800
and how he tested her again and again

2956
01:48:09,430 --> 01:48:06,239
but he was devoted to her too

2957
01:48:10,870 --> 01:48:09,440
they had a strange um you know like all

2958
01:48:14,470 --> 01:48:10,880
couples a very

2959
01:48:17,990 --> 01:48:14,480
unusual dynamic yeah some do

2960
01:48:20,629 --> 01:48:18,000
yes there's a clip i'm sure you've seen

2961
01:48:22,470 --> 01:48:20,639
it many times probably where uh

2962
01:48:25,270 --> 01:48:22,480
dershowitz

2963
01:48:26,629 --> 01:48:25,280
says something along the lines i'm

2964
01:48:29,669 --> 01:48:26,639
paraphrasing here

2965
01:48:32,470 --> 01:48:29,679
but um if it was god or

2966
01:48:34,709 --> 01:48:32,480
you know some spirit in the sky that we

2967
01:48:36,870 --> 01:48:34,719
we never have any evidence for

2968
01:48:38,149 --> 01:48:36,880
fine but when it comes to aliens forget

2969
01:48:40,310 --> 01:48:38,159
it

2970
01:48:41,350 --> 01:48:40,320
you know what i'm talking about uh i

2971
01:48:43,510 --> 01:48:41,360
think i do i know

2972
01:48:45,030 --> 01:48:43,520
alan dershowitz famously came to john

2973
01:48:48,229 --> 01:48:45,040
mack's defense

2974
01:48:48,870 --> 01:48:48,239
um during the harvard uh inquiry and he

2975
01:48:51,430 --> 01:48:48,880
wrote a

2976
01:48:52,390 --> 01:48:51,440
op-ed piece basically saying that

2977
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:52,400
harvard

2978
01:48:58,709 --> 01:48:55,760
um can be seen as

2979
01:49:00,070 --> 01:48:58,719
as challenging his academic freedom even

2980
01:49:01,990 --> 01:49:00,080
though harvard kept saying it's not

2981
01:49:05,830 --> 01:49:02,000
challenging his academic freedom

2982
01:49:07,590 --> 01:49:05,840
um it looked that way so

2983
01:49:09,510 --> 01:49:07,600
dershowitz came to his defense which is

2984
01:49:11,830 --> 01:49:09,520
interesting also i should mention this

2985
01:49:13,589 --> 01:49:11,840
that harvard is no stranger or was no

2986
01:49:16,790 --> 01:49:13,599
stranger at the time to

2987
01:49:18,790 --> 01:49:16,800
strange research um uh

2988
01:49:20,149 --> 01:49:18,800
william james the you know the great

2989
01:49:21,990 --> 01:49:20,159
father of psychology

2990
01:49:24,229 --> 01:49:22,000
was at harvard when he was experimenting

2991
01:49:28,870 --> 01:49:24,239
with mediums and seances

2992
01:49:31,589 --> 01:49:28,880
so uh harvard certainly had reason to

2993
01:49:33,030 --> 01:49:31,599
accept a strange research uh you know

2994
01:49:35,589 --> 01:49:33,040
from its faculty

2995
01:49:36,950 --> 01:49:35,599
so there was something so that would

2996
01:49:38,310 --> 01:49:36,960
have been reason enough to you know

2997
01:49:40,229 --> 01:49:38,320
allow john mack

2998
01:49:41,910 --> 01:49:40,239
you know the freedom to pursue his his

2999
01:49:45,030 --> 01:49:41,920
inquiries but there was something about

3000
01:49:47,030 --> 01:49:45,040
his enthusiasm that that put them off

3001
01:49:49,669 --> 01:49:47,040
isn't that something well you know a lot

3002
01:49:53,109 --> 01:49:49,679
of what he was looking at is

3003
01:49:55,270 --> 01:49:53,119
you know uh whether these people were

3004
01:49:57,669 --> 01:49:55,280
you know suffered some other ailment you

3005
01:49:59,189 --> 01:49:57,679
know mental illness of some kind

3006
01:50:01,750 --> 01:49:59,199
and you know when he found out they

3007
01:50:04,950 --> 01:50:01,760
didn't that you know i can understand

3008
01:50:05,510 --> 01:50:04,960
enthusiasm after you know finding that

3009
01:50:07,430 --> 01:50:05,520
out

3010
01:50:08,950 --> 01:50:07,440
yeah i mean he looked into other things

3011
01:50:09,430 --> 01:50:08,960
you know people said oh these are like

3012
01:50:11,830 --> 01:50:09,440
rape

3013
01:50:12,550 --> 01:50:11,840
victims you know they suffered maybe

3014
01:50:15,350 --> 01:50:12,560
they are

3015
01:50:16,550 --> 01:50:15,360
concealing a hamlet family history of

3016
01:50:19,109 --> 01:50:16,560
incest

3017
01:50:20,550 --> 01:50:19,119
um right so when when when mack looked

3018
01:50:21,750 --> 01:50:20,560
into their histories he found they were

3019
01:50:23,430 --> 01:50:21,760
very normal in that

3020
01:50:25,109 --> 01:50:23,440
yes there was there was in some cases

3021
01:50:26,790 --> 01:50:25,119
they had incest in some cases there were

3022
01:50:28,470 --> 01:50:26,800
alcoholics in the family

3023
01:50:30,149 --> 01:50:28,480
there were all kinds of traumas in the

3024
01:50:31,830 --> 01:50:30,159
family because they were normal people

3025
01:50:34,390 --> 01:50:31,840
what family doesn't have some you know

3026
01:50:37,510 --> 01:50:34,400
trump but he said the traumas

3027
01:50:40,229 --> 01:50:37,520
didn't cause them uh to

3028
01:50:42,390 --> 01:50:40,239
to have these uh encounters or memories

3029
01:50:45,910 --> 01:50:42,400
or encounters with with alien beings

3030
01:50:49,030 --> 01:50:45,920
that was not the explanation for them um

3031
01:50:52,870 --> 01:50:49,040
uh they were they they often uh had

3032
01:50:55,109 --> 01:50:52,880
um i don't want to say mental illnesses

3033
01:50:56,950 --> 01:50:55,119
but they had mental disturbances as a

3034
01:50:58,629 --> 01:50:56,960
result of what they encountered

3035
01:51:01,350 --> 01:50:58,639
not they didn't have the encounters

3036
01:51:03,430 --> 01:51:01,360
because they were mentally ill

3037
01:51:04,950 --> 01:51:03,440
right you know one of the things that

3038
01:51:06,149 --> 01:51:04,960
have always fascinated me i know you

3039
01:51:08,870 --> 01:51:06,159
touched on it

3040
01:51:09,990 --> 01:51:08,880
and that is uh when it comes to

3041
01:51:11,510 --> 01:51:10,000
generational

3042
01:51:13,750 --> 01:51:11,520
you know i mean that's another strange

3043
01:51:15,189 --> 01:51:13,760
thing yeah you know a child and then a

3044
01:51:17,910 --> 01:51:15,199
mother and then

3045
01:51:19,430 --> 01:51:17,920
you know they're all suffering these we

3046
01:51:20,229 --> 01:51:19,440
we only have a couple minutes left here

3047
01:51:21,910 --> 01:51:20,239
just letting you know

3048
01:51:23,830 --> 01:51:21,920
yeah that i mean that was something that

3049
01:51:25,669 --> 01:51:23,840
john noticed interestingly enough that

3050
01:51:27,510 --> 01:51:25,679
it ran in families that

3051
01:51:29,830 --> 01:51:27,520
if someone had an abduction story

3052
01:51:31,430 --> 01:51:29,840
chances are his mother or father and

3053
01:51:32,950 --> 01:51:31,440
grandfather and grandmother had it too

3054
01:51:33,830 --> 01:51:32,960
and chances are the children would have

3055
01:51:36,550 --> 01:51:33,840
it

3056
01:51:38,229 --> 01:51:36,560
why uh we don't know are these families

3057
01:51:39,990 --> 01:51:38,239
tracked are there implants put in none

3058
01:51:41,589 --> 01:51:40,000
of the implants as far as i know were

3059
01:51:43,350 --> 01:51:41,599
really conclusive that people

3060
01:51:45,430 --> 01:51:43,360
came up with afterwards and they would

3061
01:51:46,470 --> 01:51:45,440
find you know things coming out of their

3062
01:51:48,310 --> 01:51:46,480
body little

3063
01:51:50,070 --> 01:51:48,320
bbs and things like that and they say

3064
01:51:52,470 --> 01:51:50,080
these are implants but

3065
01:51:53,669 --> 01:51:52,480
again proof was very it wasn't that easy

3066
01:51:55,350 --> 01:51:53,679
you couldn't take something out of

3067
01:51:57,750 --> 01:51:55,360
someone's body and say aha

3068
01:51:58,790 --> 01:51:57,760
an alien implant this proves that they

3069
01:52:01,270 --> 01:51:58,800
were tracked

3070
01:52:01,990 --> 01:52:01,280
uh it didn't work that way sometimes the

3071
01:52:04,629 --> 01:52:02,000
objects

3072
01:52:05,270 --> 01:52:04,639
seem to be biological as if they were

3073
01:52:08,470 --> 01:52:05,280
you know

3074
01:52:10,229 --> 01:52:08,480
came from the person's body itself um or

3075
01:52:12,790 --> 01:52:10,239
sometimes the object was lost

3076
01:52:14,709 --> 01:52:12,800
you know by in the testing but there was

3077
01:52:17,830 --> 01:52:14,719
always a story

3078
01:52:19,270 --> 01:52:17,840
right yeah interesting now uh we're

3079
01:52:19,750 --> 01:52:19,280
about ready to go but i wanted to ask

3080
01:52:23,109 --> 01:52:19,760
you

3081
01:52:26,229 --> 01:52:23,119
and i know um i was a little bit of a

3082
01:52:27,109 --> 01:52:26,239
not a well i guess i i contacted you

3083
01:52:29,510 --> 01:52:27,119
quite a bit

3084
01:52:30,629 --> 01:52:29,520
uh last year when i heard there was an

3085
01:52:32,229 --> 01:52:30,639
article coming out

3086
01:52:34,390 --> 01:52:32,239
there was all kinds of rumors and you

3087
01:52:36,149 --> 01:52:34,400
and i talked you know offline basically

3088
01:52:39,030 --> 01:52:36,159
i mean online basically on

3089
01:52:40,709 --> 01:52:39,040
on how uh people were kind of making

3090
01:52:42,310 --> 01:52:40,719
that very difficult for you to move

3091
01:52:46,310 --> 01:52:42,320
forward with your stories

3092
01:52:47,910 --> 01:52:46,320
but uh did you have uh

3093
01:52:49,669 --> 01:52:47,920
how did that story in particular it

3094
01:52:52,950 --> 01:52:49,679
wasn't the bombshell that

3095
01:52:54,390 --> 01:52:52,960
you know the december 2017 story was but

3096
01:52:57,270 --> 01:52:54,400
it was pretty interesting

3097
01:52:58,950 --> 01:52:57,280
any aftermath of that you're talking

3098
01:52:59,270 --> 01:52:58,960
about the last story we did which was

3099
01:53:01,669 --> 01:52:59,280
our

3100
01:53:02,310 --> 01:53:01,679
briefings some briefings to con uh

3101
01:53:05,990 --> 01:53:02,320
briefings

3102
01:53:09,109 --> 01:53:06,000
uh uh to uh uh

3103
01:53:11,350 --> 01:53:09,119
congressional committee staff about

3104
01:53:12,870 --> 01:53:11,360
supposed materials right that were

3105
01:53:13,510 --> 01:53:12,880
recovered by the government were being

3106
01:53:15,830 --> 01:53:13,520
tested

3107
01:53:17,189 --> 01:53:15,840
this is the most difficult story we uh

3108
01:53:19,910 --> 01:53:17,199
we come up with until

3109
01:53:21,189 --> 01:53:19,920
up to that point because a lot of it is

3110
01:53:23,589 --> 01:53:21,199
classified

3111
01:53:24,870 --> 01:53:23,599
um and it was very hard to get what we

3112
01:53:27,910 --> 01:53:24,880
did find out

3113
01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:27,920
was that um

3114
01:53:31,030 --> 01:53:30,000
people like eric davis and hal put off

3115
01:53:34,870 --> 01:53:31,040
had briefed

3116
01:53:38,950 --> 01:53:34,880
congressional um committee staff

3117
01:53:42,149 --> 01:53:38,960
um mentioning materials mentioning

3118
01:53:45,189 --> 01:53:42,159
they showed slides that mentioned

3119
01:53:47,910 --> 01:53:45,199
um referenced materials

3120
01:53:48,870 --> 01:53:47,920
from possible crashes that's all we were

3121
01:53:50,870 --> 01:53:48,880
able to say that

3122
01:53:52,550 --> 01:53:50,880
congressional staff was brief we don't

3123
01:53:52,950 --> 01:53:52,560
know what the contents of the briefings

3124
01:54:00,470 --> 01:53:52,960
were

3125
01:54:02,070 --> 01:54:00,480
say that i know we had materials or this

3126
01:54:04,950 --> 01:54:02,080
and that we could not go beyond

3127
01:54:06,629 --> 01:54:04,960
what what the information was so yeah uh

3128
01:54:07,990 --> 01:54:06,639
the what the situation i described to

3129
01:54:10,950 --> 01:54:08,000
you was that people are driving us

3130
01:54:12,390 --> 01:54:10,960
crazy by predicting in the you know all

3131
01:54:13,990 --> 01:54:12,400
over the internet the times is going to

3132
01:54:15,910 --> 01:54:14,000
break the story of the century

3133
01:54:17,990 --> 01:54:15,920
we had to stick with what we could prove

3134
01:54:21,030 --> 01:54:18,000
and what we knew and it was very limited

3135
01:54:22,870 --> 01:54:21,040
and um uh you know we didn't fight with

3136
01:54:24,709 --> 01:54:22,880
our editors our editors wanted

3137
01:54:27,189 --> 01:54:24,719
us to back it up we knew it had to be

3138
01:54:29,830 --> 01:54:27,199
backed up we did it to the best we could

3139
01:54:31,830 --> 01:54:29,840
the story wasn't as long as some people

3140
01:54:34,550 --> 01:54:31,840
expected or you know fantasized

3141
01:54:36,390 --> 01:54:34,560
but it was a good story um and it was

3142
01:54:39,109 --> 01:54:36,400
the best we could do

3143
01:54:40,550 --> 01:54:39,119
excellent thanks so much ralph it was a

3144
01:54:41,270 --> 01:54:40,560
pleasure as always to speak to you

3145
01:54:42,709 --> 01:54:41,280
tonight

3146
01:54:44,470 --> 01:54:42,719
well martin a pleasure to connect with

3147
01:54:47,510 --> 01:54:44,480
you and your audience thank you

3148
01:54:49,350 --> 01:54:47,520
all right take care you too all right

3149
01:54:51,109 --> 01:54:49,360
everyone will be back next week with

3150
01:55:05,440 --> 01:54:51,119
stan gordon we'll see you then remember

3151
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:05,450
to keep your eyes to the sky